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Have M800. Need trigger wheel for SBC.

 
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gg64ss



Joined: 14 Nov 2012
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:54 pm    Post subject: Have M800. Need trigger wheel for SBC. Reply with quote

I am running a conventional head small block Chevy/Turbo with a M800 system. Motor is all brand new. No ignition system purchased as of yet. I have a Jesel belt drive. I am in the market trying to find a crank trigger wheel. I have found many different makes and models, 4, 8, 12, 24, 36, 60 tooth etc.

http://fastmotorsports.com/products/triggers.htm

That little beauty is $350. Others I have found run in the $40-$50 dollar range.


I have no idea which one to purchase. Can someone put me on the right path? I do know I can run a 1/4" magnet on the cam for sync.
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Buzzard



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 221

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would not use a flying magnet trigger.


http://trigger-wheels.com/store/contents/en-uk/d5.html

If you have not already seen it.

Chris
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gg64ss



Joined: 14 Nov 2012
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found out today, I also need to find out what sensor I'll be using before buying a trigger wheel. I have another question............. Can you interpret those numbers and pricing for me Very Happy

When I get more info on the sensor, I'll know what wheel to purchase. I just checked on a USB to CAN adapter from Motec. I understand that is what I'll need to communicate with the M800. $370 dollars. Wow! Is there another way to cable that can be used?
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stevieturbo



Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 1235
Location: Norn Iron

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A US source for trigger wheels and sensors

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/trigger-wheels-c-48.html?osCsid=04e4713434be3e74577c1809ef2bd049


Having to resort to sticking magnets onto a wheel does seem extreme and rather old fashioned. You'd never see such things on a modern engine

Any basic 36-1 etc or 60-2 will be suitable, and whether you use Hall or magnetic sensor is up to you really. Either will be fine.

Motec cables are expensive....not much can be done about that other than perhaps try and shop around.
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Pantera EFI



Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 1718
Location: So. California

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:33 pm    Post subject: GM-OPTI SPARK TW Reply with quote

We have our Opti Spark TW (36-1) that fits under the front cover in STOCK GM fashion.
That wheel may fit your Jessel Drive.

I could send you a picture.

Low cost and simple crankshaft "keyed" sandwich installation may suite your needs.

Lance
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gg64ss



Joined: 14 Nov 2012
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I sent you a PM. I'd like to see that. I now know that I'm running Hall sensors. You can send them to my email if you would like.

fire115@comcast.net

I would also like to hear some different ideas on getting the cam signal. Like I mentioned, the magnet deal is an option. I understand the Motec is very adaptable and can be used with mutiple setups.
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stevieturbo



Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 1235
Location: Norn Iron

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depending on your application ( largely injector size ) cam sensor is optional. And again, magnets certainly are not required.

Worst case, you could adapt the dizzy itself to provide the cam trigger.

I run my supercharged LS via crank only, largely because I couldnt be bothered sorting a cam trigger.
_________________
got blown

9.85 @ 144.75mph
202mph standing mile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgWRCDtiTQ0
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gg64ss



Joined: 14 Nov 2012
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I do not need a cam sensor? That doesn't make sense. Can someone shed some light on that?
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stevieturbo



Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 1235
Location: Norn Iron

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You do not need a cam signal. It may be desirable for some builds, but it is not essential to run an engine.
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got blown

9.85 @ 144.75mph
202mph standing mile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgWRCDtiTQ0
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Pantera EFI



Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 1718
Location: So. California

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:32 am    Post subject: OPD with 1/2 "moon" Hall CAS Reply with quote

I sent your requested picture.

I can provide an Oil Pump Drive GM BBC/SBC with a Hall sensor AND a
1/2 Moon target.
These are ALSO GM OEM style replacement equipment items.
We include a "corrected" cap, a "billet" cover (DIS), and the connector.

This is also a low cost item.

Lance
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Roberto Arano



Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 503
Location: colorado

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gg64ss wrote:
So I do not need a cam sensor? That doesn't make sense. Can someone shed some light on that?


you would learn more by thinking about that one, than if some one spells it out. Hint think of one of the reasons wasted spark igintion is sometimes used by OEMS, and do they have a cam sensor?

Then to go the other way, think of what happens when you need to inject fuel for almost the entire time between cycles, and or trim each cylinder differently.
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it's named efi UNIVERSITY not efi "Bragging" Smile
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PQatPIT



Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevieturbo wrote:
You do not need a cam signal.

Wrong. With Motec M800 you need a cam signal (Sync in Motec speak).

I suggest Toyota style 36-2 trigger wheel with high quality magnetic (VR) sensor. It is fairly easy to set up correctly with Motec software's Ref/Syn Capture function. Of course trigger wheel must be compatible with magnetic sensors, ie. soft iron material. Cam signal can be a single tooth with hall sensor from camshaft or oil pump drive. Pantera's system is probably the best you can get with any decent price.

This kind of sensor setup gives you accurate crankshaft position sensing and that's the only way to get good ignition timing accuracy in every situation.

Beentheredonethat. Very Happy
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stevieturbo



Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 1235
Location: Norn Iron

PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

M800 cannot do a basic engine off crank only ? Whilst Ive never tried, I'm shocked to hear that.
It must be one of the very few ecu's that insist on a cam sensor.
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got blown

9.85 @ 144.75mph
202mph standing mile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgWRCDtiTQ0
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Pantera EFI



Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 1718
Location: So. California

PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:48 am    Post subject: CAS vs Timing Lag Reply with quote

What I know :
The ECU-882/422/IGN-8 can operate an engine with a 24 tooth TW (no missing tooth) AND no CAS.
This mode for a "limp-home" start-up emergency OR continued operation with a loss of a CAS signal.

The Motec 12 tooth TW/CAS (no missing tooth) mode will NOT operate an engine with NO operating CAS.

The MOTEC will operate a 36-1 TW wheel in MORE than one mode.
There ARE modes that have a greater Timing Lag that other modes.

SET your engine to a FIXED amount of advance, use a strobe light to find the LOWEST Timing Lag mode.

This is ALSO true for All EMS.

Lance
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PQatPIT



Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:25 am    Post subject: Re: CAS vs Timing Lag Reply with quote

Pantera EFI wrote:
What I know :
The ECU-882/422/IGN-8 can operate an engine with a 24 tooth TW (no missing tooth) AND no CAS.
This mode for a "limp-home" start-up emergency OR continued operation with a loss of a CAS signal.

This is interesting. May I ask how it is done?

Something like injecting fuel for only one cylinder and checking where crank speed accelerates the most and where not? If checking only crank wheel teeth this is not possible when using even tooth 12 teeth wheel. Well, at least to my knowledge Smile
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nfn15037



Joined: 22 Dec 2005
Posts: 271
Location: New England

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:11 pm    Post subject: Re: CAS vs Timing Lag Reply with quote

PQatPIT wrote:
Pantera EFI wrote:
What I know :
The ECU-882/422/IGN-8 can operate an engine with a 24 tooth TW (no missing tooth) AND no CAS.
This mode for a "limp-home" start-up emergency OR continued operation with a loss of a CAS signal.

This is interesting. May I ask how it is done?

Something like injecting fuel for only one cylinder and checking where crank speed accelerates the most and where not? If checking only crank wheel teeth this is not possible when using even tooth 12 teeth wheel. Well, at least to my knowledge Smile


It's a 50/50 shot at getting it to sync the first time.
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Turboivo



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 751
Location: Bulgaria

PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For injecting fuel you might don't need missing tooth. Fuel would stay at the port until valve is open. I would like to know how spark is timed without missing tooth and CAS Confused
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Buzzard



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 221

PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turboivo wrote:
I would like to know how spark is timed without missing tooth and CAS Confused


If you have a distributor life is easy. For a multicoil setup you either need missing/extra teeth or sync triggger for most ecu's
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stevieturbo



Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 1235
Location: Norn Iron

PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But he did say that mode was a limp only setup. Not a fully blown correctly running engine.

I guess most ecu's should be smart enough to detect when it fires a spark, and the engine continues to run versus rpm falling and not continuing to run.

So on that basis it could calculate and estimate when to fire a spark to maintain a certain rpm, purely as a limp mode though
_________________
got blown

9.85 @ 144.75mph
202mph standing mile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgWRCDtiTQ0
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Turboivo



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 751
Location: Bulgaria

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lance have tooth acceleration algorithm built in his ECUs. I guess this could be used somehow for TDC or reference tooth determination, or may be MAP pulsations during valve openings?
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