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CDbg count shift
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buzzinhalfdozen



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:26 am    Post subject: CDbg count shift Reply with quote

Having an issue here running VR crank sensor, Hall cam sensor. Crank sensor wiring Vr+ to pin 7, VR- to pin 14, shield to pin 8. Hall sensor 5V from pin 21 negative to pin 14, signal to pin 23. This all appears to be wired correctly, and I can take Dist. which has cam sensor in it and rotate it by hand and watch the trigger number increment with each trigger. My problem is while cranking engine with only the ECU powered up viewing the monitor screen with laptop, I'll see a CDbg number that may be say 58 then it will change to 114 or it may change back and forth or it may stay at 58. I can crank engine 3-7 times and may get steay 58 count then the next time it will start changing. I'm assuming the CDbg number is the number of degrees between the cam sync pulse and the missing tooth segment, correct? Here's how I'm setting the cam phase trigger position. I'm turning the engine over till it's approaching TDC on the comp. stroke, I'm stopping 8 teeth (48 degrees) before the missing tooth segment, based on this setup I'm expecting to see a CDbg count of 54 plus or minus a degree or two...the 48 degrees (Cool teeth plus the missing tooth. I've tried 2 different hall sensors with different air gaps (tight gap low as .018 in. wide gap as much as .125 in.) same result. I've tried everything I can think of on this, moved cam sensor wiring away from everything, changed the trigger phase setup 180 degrees ect. I did notice however after downloading the ECU connector pinout from 034 motorsports that it says connector B (grey) HALL/VR NEG-Metal for (hall) white (for VR)-HALL/VR negative side. this confuses me what Metal is it stating? do I really want to hook my HALL sensor ground to the VR sensor negative? I'm running out of ideas here can someone guide m,e on this? Sorry for the long post but thought I'd try and answer most of the questions I'm sure will be asked. Thanks Joe
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Pantera EFI



Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 1718
Location: So. California

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:09 pm    Post subject: CD-Bug Reply with quote

Hi Joe, the two parameters WD-Bug and CD-Bug are related.

Wheel D-Bug is a term for counting the teeth on a Crankshaft Target wheel and should ALWAYS be stable with a running engine.

Cam D-Bug is a count of the teeth referenced by the Cam Censor's (CAS) single tooth against the tooth count on the Crankshaft Target.

This count should be stable.

There are 58 present teeth on a 60-2 TW, a 59 count observed by an EMS as the "missing tooth" is seen as a single tooth.

Thus the CAS position is AT THE missing tooth section.

This IS a PROBLEM, try to get the CD-bug around 54 or 108.

Lance
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buzzinhalfdozen



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lance, yes I understand the terms WDbg and Cdbg and their relationship to each other. The problem is trying to get a constant CDbg count, last nite while trying different varying air gaps reference angles ect, I noticed a bit of a pattern. On initial crank of engine, ECU on only, viewing monitor screen on laptop, I was seeing 24 for what seemed like 1 revolution then it would switch to 84 and stay there as long as I kept the engine cranking. When I would stop and start again I'd see the same thing 24 then goes to 84 and stays there. If I would move the dist. which has the Cam sensor in it I'd see the same thing 12 then goes to 72 and stay there, then move again 8 then goes to 68. The common theme here seems to be the number 60. Now I'm thinking OK 60 equals 10 teeth so I'm wondering is the Crank position sensor somehow missing some of the first revolution? So I spent a while changing the crank sensor air gap, from low as .015in. to as wide as .090in. ... same result. At this point I'm inclined to believe that somehow the sensor I'm using is not sensitive enough or my runout which is .002 in is an issue. I suppose my next plan may be to use 1 of the "bradley" hall sensors I got from you and set it up as the crank sensor, do you see a problem with using it for that purpose? Then I'm going to see if there's any change. Maybe I'm just chasing my tail on this number 60 but it seems to be a clue to me, just not sure what it trying to tell me, since 60 would equate to 10 teeth. Please let me know your thoughts. Joe
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Pantera EFI



Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 1718
Location: So. California

PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:15 am    Post subject: TW Count Reply with quote

Hi Joe, your findings are hard for me to understand, your wording.

We have a the ability to "bench test" your unit, this is free, just add return postal shipping.

I would update your firmware, also free.

My guess is that you are correct with sensor input being the problem.

The CAS needs to be a Hall Sensor which I also believe you have stated.

We count teeth, each tooth is six degrees.

The different CAS counts you may be stating could suggest some EMI problems as a trigger seems to occure at different times when NO POST (Cam Trigger point) is present.

Lance
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buzzinhalfdozen



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lance, yes I'm using a hall Cam sensor, ECU has not been used since you last tested it, has latest firmware in it also. EMI could be an issue, however there is nothing else active on the car except the ECU being powered up and my laptop being connected to it. The only things doing anything are the starter motor is turning, ther crank sensor is creating it's signal, the cam sensor is triggering that's it. Maybe I'm not stating my findings correctly. While cranking engine over with the starter motor while viewing the MONITOR screen, looking at the WDbg and CDbg counts, at very first rotation of engine I'm seeing an 8 in the CDbg window, then it will change to 68 and stay at that number as long as i continue to crank the engine. The difference between the first number and the second is 60, this repeats the same pattern if I move the cam sync in relation to the Crank wheel position. The only time this pattern changes is if I advance the cam sync past a certain point then I will see 114 at first rotation then goes to 54, just seems too repetative to not indicate something. Can I use the "Bradley" hall sensor on the 60-2 crank wheel? As this seems to be my only option at this point without ordering a bunch of different sensors and trying them all. Thanks Joe One last idea, could it be noise from the starter? It has no "direct" ground path back to the batt. Neg.
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buzzinhalfdozen



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, update here, I've switched to a hall sensor for the crank sensor, wired as follows Hall 5V. from pin 21 which also power cam hall sensor,Crank Hall sensor ground to pin 14 which is also cam sensor ground, Crank Hall sensor signal to pin 7 these are of course going to connector B of the ECU. I've verified I'm seeing 5 Volts to both sensors. I've checked the target wheel runout once again, which is difficult to do however I've marked the wheel with 2 X's which gives me 45 degree checking points using a dial indicator I've checked at all my marked points and get .0025 in. runout. So all seems to be in order, target runout verified, wiring of sensor verified set sensor gap to .025 in. Now while cranking engine over I'm seeing on my WDbg at first a 2 or a 5 then goes to 59 and stays there the duration of the crank event, my CDbg number is reading on a similar fashion, first I see 8 then goes to 68 and stays there for entire crank event. This is very disturbing to me as ALL parameters seem to be met here to get a GOOD STEADY crank tooth count so what is causing this "miscount on initial crank? My trigger wheel has a "half" filled missing tooth segment that's to say it's cut out half the normal tooth notch depth, could this be an issue? This certainly seems like a straight forward set up wiring is simple to do and verify, seeing good steady square wave signal with scope on sensor....so what is happening here? Late last night I set the Wheel code to "strict" setting wheel number from 60 to 160, I still get the erronous trigger counts but maybe it will start correctly using this method , it was too late last night to start, I'll try tonite. Joe Forgot to mention before all of this latest testing I ran an 8 ga. wire from the starter mounting bolt to the batt. neg. term just to rule out starter noise as a possibilty.
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Pantera EFI



Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 1718
Location: So. California

PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:25 pm    Post subject: CAS tooth position Reply with quote

Hi Joe, the information states a marked improvement.

NOW UNDERSTAND, the CAS TRIGGER should be after the last cylinder/before the first a 50/50 is best though NOT an exact requirement.

Thus the first count should be around 54, the next 108 or 54 again or 108 again with a running engine.

The EXACT number could be different.

Lance
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buzzinhalfdozen



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok Lance, your last statement lost me, I'll assume you're talking about the CDbg count with the first count 54 the next 108? This is what I think is an issue, my CDbg number does just that it starts at one number then changes to another...this to me would indicate a syncerror correct? At least my belief is I should always see 59 in my WDbg number box(never changing) and a fixed number (54,58,60 ) what ever it may be for a Cdbg number and never changing...is this not correct? As I stated in my posts I'm seeing the WDbg number as well as the CDbg number change as I initiate the crank, then it stabalizes and stays stable thru out the crank cycle. The problem is it doesn't start correctly, it may actually start but does not run correctly, I can see it quits firing at least the coil I have my timing lite hooked to. This is why I set it to "strict" and will try tonite to see if I can get it to start properly. I'm still just absoltely baffled as to why these Dbg numbers are moving as I've made every effort to assure the accuracy of all the wiring, sensor set up and alignment and trigger points. Thanks Joe
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Steve Arndt



Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Posts: 74
Location: Idaho

PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You mention that you switched from a VR crank sensor to a hall sensor. Did you switch the two jumpers on the board that correspond to the sensor type?

Steve
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buzzinhalfdozen



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Steve I moved both the jumpers to the HS position.Latest update as of last nite engine starts when using "strict" wheel code. I know I should be thrilled and I am to a degree, however I'm puzzled as to why I'm having to set it up this way. So far engine runs with steady WDbg and CDbg numbers indicated. Of course it's only seem around 3000 RPM now I'll have to tidy everything up, get it on the chassis dyno and see what it does at 10,000 RPM.Fingers and toes are crossed (doubt it will help) I am seeing one other issue I hadn't noticed. After I updated my Firmware my Map cells do not fit the grey shaded box, it has the 16x16 cell block however it's not sized correctly the bottomof the cell starts at 25% TPS on the vertical and Ends at 8500RPM on the horizontal. Did I do something wrong installing the Firmware? This would make it very difficult to see exactly what range you're making changes to. Thanks Joe
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Pantera EFI



Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 1718
Location: So. California

PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:13 am    Post subject: Stable CD-Bug AFTER start Reply with quote

Hi Joe, good news again.

Do NOT worry about a change in CD-Bug at start, running is when this is important.

Your question MAY be answered by the fact that your TPS calibration is NOW INCORRECT.

Another "guess" is that your Font Size in Display Settings may be off, TRY Small Fonts OR Large Fonts

Look for the Calibrate buttons for TPS.

Lance
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buzzinhalfdozen



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lance, I've calibrated the TPS in the configuration sensor setup. That's not the issue. The problem is the 16x16 cell block does not "fit" the basic map screen, the actual size of the 16x16 cell is smaller than the grey shaded box it's in... for instance if I look across to say 9000 RPM on the horizontal range and go straight above it there's no cells there, they stop at 8500 RPM. On the vertical plane, whether it's the MAP, or TPS, or TPS mix the cell block doesn't start until about 3 cell block heights up. It's like someone shrunk the 16x16 cell block and stuck it up in the left hand corner. Does that expain it good enough? Thanks Joe
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RootesRacer



Joined: 04 Apr 2005
Posts: 485
Location: Arvada, Colorado

PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe,

What is the software revision of the tuning software?
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Pantera EFI



Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 1718
Location: So. California

PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:00 am    Post subject: Display Settings Reply with quote

Hi Joe, what you see is NOT an ECU condition.

The GUI tools we use will accept limited Font Sizes, they must match.

Try to change your Laptop Display Settings in the Control Panel.

Lance
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RootesRacer



Joined: 04 Apr 2005
Posts: 485
Location: Arvada, Colorado

PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RootesRacer wrote:
Joe,

What is the software revision of the tuning software?



Got an answer on this?

Lance is not the final word with regard to your problem.
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buzzinhalfdozen



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RootesRacer, sorry been away a few days. I;m using version 1.02 I can comm. with the ECU however the MAP cells are not sized correctly. Nate from 034 motorsports E-mailed me an update to address the issue I have to the best of my very limited computer abilities installed it in the folder however it still displays incorrectly. I've contacted Nate by E- mail to see if he could walk me thru the process but haven't heard from him as of yet. I'm really not sure if I've got it in the right place or not since it didn't seem to fix the issue. I know he's probably quite busy but I guess I need someone to guide me keystroke by keystroke on this so I make sure I have it right. The maps do work and I can make changes however I have to sorta "imagine" which cell I'm making changes in. Thanks for the interest. Joe
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RootesRacer



Joined: 04 Apr 2005
Posts: 485
Location: Arvada, Colorado

PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

buzzinhalfdozen wrote:
RootesRacer, sorry been away a few days. I;m using version 1.02 I can comm. with the ECU however the MAP cells are not sized correctly. Nate from 034 motorsports E-mailed me an update to address the issue I have to the best of my very limited computer abilities installed it in the folder however it still displays incorrectly. I've contacted Nate by E- mail to see if he could walk me thru the process but haven't heard from him as of yet. I'm really not sure if I've got it in the right place or not since it didn't seem to fix the issue. I know he's probably quite busy but I guess I need someone to guide me keystroke by keystroke on this so I make sure I have it right. The maps do work and I can make changes however I have to sorta "imagine" which cell I'm making changes in. Thanks for the interest. Joe


Yes Nate mentioned that you were having problems.

Verify that the software version is 1.02.02, you do this by clicking the "?" or "about" menu from the main console.

If its not 1.02.02 then you have not yet moved the program to your folder.

1.02.02 has yet to not resolve the issue you describe.
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buzzinhalfdozen



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks I'll try that when I get back to the shop. I think it's obvious that I'm not exactly "computer savy" however I can push whatever button someone tells me to.LOL I know it can be frustrating trying to help someone when they're not on the same "wave lenght" as you, would it be possible to PM you when I get hooked up tonite or some other nite at your convience, if not I understand. BTW I posted a question I thought here about my Crank trigger system, I'm running a 60-2 7 1/2 in. trigger wheel have a hall sensor ( Bradley, military type connector on it) while running in the shop low speed 1500-3500 RPM, WDbg and CDbg numbers are steady, my question is will this be reliable up to the 10,000 RPM range? Thanks Joe
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RootesRacer



Joined: 04 Apr 2005
Posts: 485
Location: Arvada, Colorado

PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

buzzinhalfdozen wrote:
Thanks I'll try that when I get back to the shop. I think it's obvious that I'm not exactly "computer savy" however I can push whatever button someone tells me to.LOL I know it can be frustrating trying to help someone when they're not on the same "wave lenght" as you, would it be possible to PM you when I get hooked up tonite or some other nite at your convience, if not I understand. BTW I posted a question I thought here about my Crank trigger system, I'm running a 60-2 7 1/2 in. trigger wheel have a hall sensor ( Bradley, military type connector on it) while running in the shop low speed 1500-3500 RPM, WDbg and CDbg numbers are steady, my question is will this be reliable up to the 10,000 RPM range? Thanks Joe


The hall sensor may not be able to switch fast or accurately at 10k rpm due to the magnetic field not being able to dissipate with such a short tooth time. The Hall sensor magnets also must match the tooth profile for your target wheel for optimal operation.

The VR trigger is best for high tooth counts and high RPM operation.
I was never convinced your VR setup was an issue in the first place.

You can PM me, I'll try to check the forum now and then.
Best to do so early though.
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buzzinhalfdozen



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info, it seems sometimes hard to get a direct answer, Guess I'll put the Vr sensor back on and change the jumpers. I appreciate your knowledge and help. you're on Central time? correct? Joe
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