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What Pantera system do i have?
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germansupplyscott



Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:56 pm    Post subject: What Pantera system do i have? Reply with quote

i am preparing to install a redline weber injection system on a VW engine. we have a complete system with ECU, wiring, TB's. the thing is that this system was bought by my customer, second hand, and i cannot verify for sure what we have. the user documentation available on the redline website is not very helpful. the package came with printed manuals for both the ECU-882 and the ECU-32.

can someone identify this ECU? TIA.







scott lyons
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RootesRacer



Joined: 04 Apr 2005
Posts: 485
Location: Arvada, Colorado

PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an ECU-422, but you need to read off the info scribed into the connector to determine if its a A, B or C model as each have different firmware and capabilities.
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germansupplyscott



Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks!

there are some characters hand-engraved:

1158 1

L4(?) B UR

i'll post a photo later today.

what is the difference between the 442 and 882 ECU?

scott lyons
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RootesRacer



Joined: 04 Apr 2005
Posts: 485
Location: Arvada, Colorado

PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

germansupplyscott wrote:
thanks!

there are some characters hand-engraved:

1158 1

L4(?) B UR

i'll post a photo later today.

what is the difference between the 442 and 882 ECU?

scott lyons



You have an ECU-422-B, with VR input trigger.

Its capabilities are for distributor based (VR) sensor trigger, where you run the mechanical+vacuum advance built into the distributor, AND/OR you can lock the distributor down and let the ECU control timing. Either way the ECU lets you tweak timing and control fuel ETC.

The 422 (not 442) has 4 injector drivers, 2 coil drivers and 2 GPOs.
It also has a CAN bus for an external dash display and board barometric sensor. It can alternatively be configured to run up to 6 injectors with no GPOs (5+1 too).

The 882 has 8 injector drivers, 8 coil drivers, 2 high power GPOs and 2 low power GPOs. It also has a CAN bus for an external dash display on board logging memory, a stepper driver controller and board barometric sensor.

Hope that helps out.
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Pantera EFI



Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 1718
Location: So. California

PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:07 am    Post subject: Redline EMS Reply with quote

The Redline Engine Management ECU-422B-1 is what you have shown.
The "4" is to state four injector drivers.
The "2" is to state two coil drivers.
The "2" is to state two GPO's.

The "B" is to state that THE UNIT IS DISTRIBUTOR TRIGGERED.

The "1" is to state a ONE BAR MAP sensor, along with the BARO sensor inside the box.

The "VR" is to state compatability to the Variable Reluctance sensor inside a common distributor.
(this can be changed to Hall by internal jumpers).

The '422', '882, 'IGN8 all use the same processor, the software is different between "Crankfire" OR "distriButored" triggered.

The "8" is to state eight ignition channels.
The "8" is to state eight injector channels.
The "2" is the state two "hign current" GPO's (two low current GPO's are also present)

I suggest you call Eric at Redline EFI, to upgrade to the newer software/firmware.
Your box may also be upgraded to a "C" crankfire.

Lance
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germansupplyscott



Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for the detailed replies, gentlemen. things are getting clearer. i will contact eric next week. meanwhile i am doing whatever i can over the weekend to get ready.

at the moment my head is swimming somewhat with questions, but i will try to keep them simple and direct as i get more acquainted with what i am dealing with. i am used to out of the box or OE solutions, so something with so many variables is a bit daunting, to say nothing of the nomenclature that comes with the territory. learning curve? yes.

if this system is to be installed on an engine with MSD distributor and MSD digital6 controller, will we need a tach adapter?

scott lyons
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Pantera EFI



Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 1718
Location: So. California

PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:07 am    Post subject: ECU-Trigger Reply with quote

The VW MSD distributor will trigger your '422 (event based).

If you have one on hand it will work.
If you have to buy one, look to "crankfire".

The cost of the crank pulley (60-2), bracket, and sensor could be less than the cost of the MSD.

The coil needed would be the IGN-4, a DIS four post, twin channel coil.

You would then have your EDIS system, a common "high class" igntion system for VW.

Lance
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germansupplyscott



Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lance,

thanks for your input.

we have both the MSD distributor and the digital6 box currently installed in the car (which was running on carbs up to now).

i don't think i want to install crank fire at this point, i would rather get the car running on the EFI with conventional ignition and then perhaps introduce the crankfire at a later stage. this EFI install is already taxing enough on my little brain without adding another completely foreign concept such as crankfire ignition. yes, if i really look at it, if we have the ability to make the engine run on crankfire easily, why not do it? we will, i just think now is not the time.

the other complicating factor is that the engine this stuff is going on has yet to be started for the first time, so we have a bit of ground to cover and about 2 weeks to get there. simpler is better for me at this stage of the game.

so my question regarding the MSD ignition box is will the tach output of the MSD be suitable to trigger the 422? i seem to recall reading about people having difficulty making the 422 system work with an MSD ignition box.
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Pantera EFI



Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 1718
Location: So. California

PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:23 am    Post subject: 6-AL to ECU-422B Reply with quote

There are two methods.

The one that I would favor is to connect the MSD distributor to the VR input of the '422.

Then connect the Lt. Green/yellow (coil chanel 1) to the "points" input of the 6-AL.

This will allow the 422 to retard the ignition timing, ONLY if required.

Ground the 6-AL box cover to the case of the '422, this will help keep the noise out.

Lance
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Marty



Joined: 06 Jun 2007
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the VW I am finishing up now.

[IMG]http://m-specmotorsports.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1558&g2_serialNumber=2[/IMG]

[img]http://m-specmotorsports.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1563&g2_serialNumber=2[/img]

[img]http://m-specmotorsports.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1658&g2_serialNumber=2[/img]

[img]http://m-specmotorsports.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1156&g2_serialNumber=2[/img]
_________________
www.staggsracing.com
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germansupplyscott



Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shite, marty, that's an awesome looking installation.

you are operating at a level that is so far above anything we'll ever be doing here, but that's OK, it's inspiring.
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germansupplyscott



Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:52 pm    Post subject: Re: 6-AL to ECU-422B Reply with quote

Pantera EFI wrote:
There are two methods.

The one that I would favor is to connect the MSD distributor to the VR input of the '422.

Then connect the Lt. Green/yellow (coil chanel 1) to the "points" input of the 6-AL.


is there another way to do this? it seems like i have a '422 with two dead coil drivers.
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RootesRacer



Joined: 04 Apr 2005
Posts: 485
Location: Arvada, Colorado

PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:57 pm    Post subject: Re: 6-AL to ECU-422B Reply with quote

germansupplyscott wrote:
Pantera EFI wrote:
There are two methods.

The one that I would favor is to connect the MSD distributor to the VR input of the '422.

Then connect the Lt. Green/yellow (coil chanel 1) to the "points" input of the 6-AL.


is there another way to do this? it seems like i have a '422 with two dead coil drivers.


You can take your ECU tach output, it generates a 12v square wave output that would look just like your points would with a resistor instead of a coil.

This assumes the MSD can happily trigger from it.

As for your drivers, are you sure? (they are pretty robust) and how did you do that (too much dwell?)?
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germansupplyscott



Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:09 pm    Post subject: Re: 6-AL to ECU-422B Reply with quote

RootesRacer wrote:
You can take your ECU tach output, it generates a 12v square wave output that would look just like your points would with a resistor instead of a coil.

This assumes the MSD can happily trigger from it.

As for your drivers, are you sure? (they are pretty robust) and how did you do that (too much dwell?)?


one is bad for sure - we let the smoke out of it by running the '422 with an MSD coil. not sure on the 2nd one, but i think it went bad also when someone connected both the 12V and coil channel wire to the same terminal on the coil, so the coil channel wire would have been given 12V+, which is supposed to bad. we have no spark now.

in your circuit above, what would it look like?

you would simply use the tach output from the ECU instead of the Coil Channel (Lt. Gr/Yel)
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RootesRacer



Joined: 04 Apr 2005
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Location: Arvada, Colorado

PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 12:10 am    Post subject: Re: 6-AL to ECU-422B Reply with quote

germansupplyscott wrote:
RootesRacer wrote:
You can take your ECU tach output, it generates a 12v square wave output that would look just like your points would with a resistor instead of a coil.

This assumes the MSD can happily trigger from it.

As for your drivers, are you sure? (they are pretty robust) and how did you do that (too much dwell?)?


one is bad for sure - we let the smoke out of it by running the '422 with an MSD coil. not sure on the 2nd one, but i think it went bad also when someone connected both the 12V and coil channel wire to the same terminal on the coil, so the coil channel wire would have been given 12V+, which is supposed to bad. we have no spark now.

in your circuit above, what would it look like?

you would simply use the tach output from the ECU instead of the Coil Channel (Lt. Gr/Yel)


If the dwell was set appropriately, the MSD coil shouldnt have hurt the ECU. Its a matter of setting the dwell low and increasing it until you get enough spark energy. If it was an MSD blaster coil, these are very low primary resistance and have a short dwell compared to normal coils.
On the second one, if you you put 12v directly to the driver it would probably not even smoke, but rather blow a large hole in the IGBT the first time the ECU tried to turn the coil on.

If you desire, the ECU can be repaired, blown IGBTs usually do not damage the PC board.

The circuit to trigger the MSD is simple, just connect the tach output wire from the ECU to the MSD trigger input. If the MSD has any setup requirements, the tach output will trigger from a low (0v) to a high (12v) at the spark instant. Some ignitions are a significant load to a tach signal such as this, if you find the voltage doesnt go to 12v then you can add a 470 ohm or 1Kohm pullup resistor from 12v to the tach output.
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Pantera EFI



Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 1718
Location: So. California

PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:43 am    Post subject: ECU-422B-1-TTL Reply with quote

Another method used by many as their OEM choice, Dynatek Racing, is to replace the IGBT's with a shunt.

The "left" pad under the large IGBT pad could have a wire (0 OHM RESISTOR) soldered between the two of those pads.

This creates the model 422 "TTL".

The coil would need to have a "built-in-driver", the Ignitior.

The IGN-1A item from Redlineweber would be a perfect choice for a new coil.

There are other methods, we could send you new IGBT's in the mail (free), the box, with cover removed,
could be returned and reworked.

The worst case is a new board, though the cost is low ($300.00), the unit would be completly new.
Your original SN# is reinstalled and with this method you would NOT pay for the "firmware" twice.

Lance
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germansupplyscott



Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:23 pm    Post subject: Re: 6-AL to ECU-422B Reply with quote

RootesRacer wrote:
If the dwell was set appropriately, the MSD coil shouldnt have hurt the ECU. Its a matter of setting the dwell low and increasing it until you get enough spark energy. If it was an MSD blaster coil, these are very low primary resistance and have a short dwell compared to normal coils.


MSD blaster SS coil.

one thing i found, and why i was reverting to the bosch blue coil and the MSD distributor, was that with the MSD distributor and digital 6 box, the idle speed was wandering. i surmise i should be using different ignition coil settings depending on the type of coil. i did not manipulate these settings at all when tuning the engine.

RootesRacer wrote:
On the second one, if you you put 12v directly to the driver it would probably not even smoke, but rather blow a large hole in the IGBT the first time the ECU tried to turn the coil on.


you don't say? funny, but i just opened up the ECU and that's exactly what it looks like. a big black hole in the coil driver widget.

RootesRacer wrote:
If you desire, the ECU can be repaired, blown IGBTs usually do not damage the PC board.


the ECU still works fine, i have verified this as best as i can. it powers up fine, triggers are seen by it by rotating the distributor by hand. all looks OK.

so now i have to remove the IGBT's from the board and replace them, or have this done. they look like they are soldered on the entire back surface, as well as the pins. is this correct?


RootesRacer wrote:
The circuit to trigger the MSD is simple, just connect the tach output wire from the ECU to the MSD trigger input. If the MSD has any setup requirements, the tach output will trigger from a low (0v) to a high (12v) at the spark instant. Some ignitions are a significant load to a tach signal such as this, if you find the voltage doesnt go to 12v then you can add a 470 ohm or 1Kohm pullup resistor from 12v to the tach output.


if i can't get the IGBT's replaced myself i will try this, thanks.


Last edited by germansupplyscott on Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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germansupplyscott



Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:04 pm    Post subject: Re: ECU-422B-1-TTL Reply with quote

Pantera EFI wrote:
There are other methods, we could send you new IGBT's in the mail (free)


this is a very kind offer. i might take it up. my mailing address is in this link:

http://www.germansupply.com/xcart/customer/help.php?section=contactus

alternatively, is this the item i need?

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=ISL9V5036S3STCT-ND

digikey has a warehouse near me, i might be able to get them faster from them, and it would save you the trouble.

what i am not sure about is if i have the wherewithal to re and re these from the board. are they soldered on the whole back surface? without getting into a lesson on soldering, is there anything particularly difficult about re and re -ing these components from the board? i'm game to try to do it, for sure.
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Pantera EFI



Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 1718
Location: So. California

PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:52 am    Post subject: IGBT's 46 AMP Reply with quote

YES, you are correct, as you can see the IGBT is rated@46 AMPS.
Get the "data sheet", more information will be found.
My favorite is the 500 mj clamp !

My method to R&R the IGBT is to first "CUT" the legs, the two leeds on the bottom.

Then "float" the part off by using the solder iron placed on the opposite side, the silver steel base.
NOT THE PLASTIC

Then rework the pads, place (melt) fresh solder onto the three positions.

Apply the new IGBT on the top of the pad, hold the plastic with tweezers,
touch the solder iron to the steel as was done in the removal process.

A third "hand" is now helpfull, a quick "touch" of solder to the point of contact will speed the heat transfer.

The part will then sink onto the pad, PUSH DOWN on the plastic you will find that it will sink.

The same method is used for the two leeds.

I would get the extra IGBT from DK.

"Go for it" you will find this an easy rework.

Lance
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germansupplyscott



Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks, lance. the parts should be here tomorrow. i think i can do it.

when putting the IGBT back on, do you heat the pad from behind also to get the top part flowed in?
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