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Eco Boost three terminal coils

 
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John at J&S



Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 288
Location: GARDEN GROVE, CA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:57 am    Post subject: Eco Boost three terminal coils Reply with quote

2012 F150 Eco Boost has a three terminal coil. Also used on:

2013 Flex, 2013 Taurus

I signed up on alldata.com and the coil wiring looks like it's a smart coil.

Can anyone confirm this?

Thanks very much.

JohnP
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C. Ludwig



Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Posts: 354

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does this help? I can did deeper into the manual, but just don't have the time right now.


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John at J&S



Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 288
Location: GARDEN GROVE, CA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks very much. I have a similar diagram from All Data for the 2012 F150.

I really don't want to say smart coil, because the Vampire is a much easier install, but it is what it is, as they say.
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Power-Tripp



Joined: 26 Nov 2008
Posts: 441
Location: Deep South, AL, USA

PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,
I ran into this as well when trying to improve coil output.
The coil is a smart coil in that it allows changes to maintain secondary coil resistance. This makes it difficult to improve ignition output without the PCM offsetting.
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John at J&S



Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 288
Location: GARDEN GROVE, CA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayne:

To be clear, are you saying the coil has an internal ignition transistor?
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Pantera EFI



Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 1718
Location: So. California

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:40 am    Post subject: Coyote Coil Reply with quote

Hi John, as you know we now have our "two wire" coyote coil finished, with three position connector.
This information, I tried to share by phone to you, will be stated now.

The circuit noted by Chris would be correct when used by Ford to help the starting "MSD" that many newer engines have correctly designed a coil for that purpose.
This is the MAIN reason for short dwell times, which your method destroys, for start-up.

NOW for your test :
1. Step up a test bench with a Pico Load/Pressure Chamber your choice.
2. Connect your scope on the primary to "see" Dwell Truncation.
3. ADD to noted Capacitor to the primary channel power feed.

My guess is the result will be better shown at LOW dwell/high frequency testing.

Lance
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John at J&S



Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 288
Location: GARDEN GROVE, CA

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lance:

Thank you for that information.

Can you confirm the 2013 F150 coils (shown in the diagram) have an internal ignition transistor?

What is the little box shown inside the coil? It's connected as if it were an ignition transistor.
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joe90



Joined: 19 Mar 2013
Posts: 382
Location: under the car

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John at J&S wrote:
Lance:

Thank you for that information.

Can you confirm the 2013 F150 coils (shown in the diagram) have an internal ignition transistor?

What is the little box shown inside the coil? It's connected as if it were an ignition transistor.


It's the box in the diagram.....it's an IC. It's got 4 connections, battery, earth, input, output.

The reason for the self switchoff/spark after a set dwell time is so that if you turn on the ignition but don't start it, or when you stall, you won't cook the coil or the driver.
There's plenty of datasheets online for IGBT coil driver ICs. Just got to cut it open and find out which one they're using.

"Smart coil" is nothing more than marketing terminology. The IGBT is an amplifier with built in protection based around voltage, current, time and temperature. It's to try to make them idiot proof so they don't self destruct when you mod them wrongly.


Last edited by joe90 on Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Pantera EFI



Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 1718
Location: So. California

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:33 pm    Post subject: Coil Conections Reply with quote

OK, What I "SEE" viewing the SHOWN Diagram.

1. PIN # 1 is CLEARLY tied to a common ground.

2. PIN # 2 is CLEARLY tied to the ECU output channel, one color for each cylinder.

3. PIN # 3 is CLEARLY tied to a common ground passing through a CAP
AND the "A" which could be the power 12 +.

MY guess is that inside that box is an IGBT.

YOU could just buy one coil from Ford measure the resistance.

Lance
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John at J&S



Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 288
Location: GARDEN GROVE, CA

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lance:

Why would your "two wire" coil have a three position connector?
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Pantera EFI



Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 1718
Location: So. California

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:24 pm    Post subject: Coyote Coil Reply with quote

Hi John, that choice may have been made by Ford to REDUCE connector differences.

This case has population of the "outside" terminals, NOT the center terminal. (EMPTY)

Lance
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John at J&S



Joined: 12 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see, thanks very much.
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Power-Tripp



Joined: 26 Nov 2008
Posts: 441
Location: Deep South, AL, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lance,
What is different about your Coyote coil compared to stock? I assume you removed the "spring" between the coil and the plug terminal, but is the coil itself any different? I assume this is going to last better than the coils from Granatelli.

I am running .030 plug gaps on the stock coils on my personal F150 Ecoboost and would really like to be able to open them back up and work on tuning better cruise consumption.

Where can I find part numbers, pricing, and place an order - call you directly? I need a few more IGN1 coils as well.

-Wayne
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Technology is so much fun but we can drown in our technology. The fog of information can drive out knowledge.

The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge.

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Pantera EFI



Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 1718
Location: So. California

PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:17 am    Post subject: Two Wire Coyote Coil Reply with quote

The Coyote coil we have is the "two wire" unit with three pin connector. (center terminal not populated).

This is the first design with a greater output, over 10%.

The cavity mold is not the one used for Visteon though it is the same. (two separate molds)

The "turns ratio" for the OEM coils was changed from the original design to reduce output.

The other parameters, location, copper, steel, etc. are the same.

I would be able to send you a CD, thanks for the request.
These are ALSO available from WorldPac, use Speed Dial.

Lance
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joe90



Joined: 19 Mar 2013
Posts: 382
Location: under the car

PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Two Wire Coyote Coil Reply with quote

Pantera EFI wrote:


This is the first design with a greater output, over 10%.


Lance


10% more what?
Volts, amps or joules....or maybe insulation.

What do the old ones have?
What do the new ones have?


The original coils had a very high failure rate because they're inside a metal tube that's earthed.
That put too much stress on the insulation.

TV designers figured that one out 40 odd years ago. If they wanted it to fail sooner rather than later in order to sell more of them, they'd mount an earthed heat sink right next to the flyback transformer, after 2 or 3 years, the transformer always failed by arcing to the plate.
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Pantera EFI



Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 1718
Location: So. California

PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:51 am    Post subject: Cooper vs Coyote Coil Reply with quote

Hi Joe, I DOUBT that an original Coyote coil has failed in use as it has just been released.

The coil I designed for Cooper products (the pencil coil) in 1994 was a bit of a problem only solved by a CNP style or cylinder head redesign.

That result in engine engineering, forced by Marelli, allowed for a larger opening in the bore of the sparkplug access opening.

Marelli who first sold the Cooper Products coil@35 mj has increased the output specification to allow for 58 mj output.

The failure rate has also decreased.

Lance
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