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Techsalvager
Joined: 21 Jun 2011
Posts: 140
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 Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:19 pm Post subject: thoughts on good standalones for oem feel |
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So I have a megasquirt currently and was wondering what does the crowd here like in the choices of standalones that offere near oem albilities.
Personally if I could of I would of just tuned the stock ecu for the turbo setup. I've been looking at motec's software and what it offers and it has me liking it but I do know there are several other options out there. I know ecus can go really expensive and thats why I went with the megasquirt for low cost. Personally though from what I've read and look at, looks like MAF would be the way to go in reguards to near oem control.
I also thought about trying to rig up say a stock GM 4 cylinder ecu of newer design like off a Saturn sky or Pontiac soltice.
Is there systems that support communications though a obd plug to normal obd readers? |
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Matt Cramer
Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 275
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:01 am Post subject: |
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Could you define what you mean by "near OEM abilities?" That can cover a lot of ground - if you wanted a system that behaves like a D-Jetronic, you may have something a bit too sophisticated.  What exactly do you want to accomplish? Drivability? Sneaking a heavily modified car through a smog test? Building a new line of sports cars that have to comply with California smog laws?
The only aftermarket ECUs on the market that I'm aware of that are based on actual OEM designs are Bosch Motorsports and two Mototron based systems, ProEFI and Edelbrock's Pro Tuner (NOT Pro Flo). Well, technically, there's also the Delphi MEFI4 (which has been sold at various times by Painless and MSD), but it's an OEM *marine* setup and doesn't seem to be the easiest thing to tune.
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Techsalvager
Joined: 21 Jun 2011
Posts: 140
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| Matt Cramer wrote: | Could you define what you mean by "near OEM abilities?" That can cover a lot of ground - if you wanted a system that behaves like a D-Jetronic, you may have something a bit too sophisticated. What exactly do you want to accomplish? Drivability? Sneaking a heavily modified car through a smog test? Building a new line of sports cars that have to comply with California smog laws?
The only aftermarket ECUs on the market that I'm aware of that are based on actual OEM designs are Bosch Motorsports and two Mototron based systems, ProEFI and Edelbrock's Pro Tuner (NOT Pro Flo). Well, technically, there's also the Delphi MEFI4 (which has been sold at various times by Painless and MSD), but it's an OEM *marine* setup and doesn't seem to be the easiest thing to tune. |
I can agree the megasquirt in ways can be better than the stock ecu, but in certain areas it seems not as good. I remember when I was checking timing to make sure it was aligned between engine and ecu. Despite the stock ecu being older compared to a MS, they had timing locked on very nicely but the MS using stock sensors seems to have more slop in the ignition timing.
Many other things, there is no fall back mode that I can see in Megasquirt incase say your map or maf sensor fails that you can drop down to a get home mode \ limp mode.
Driveability yes, unfrountaly no one around here has a 4 or 5 gas analyzer, probably because here we don't have emissions testing in this county in ga.
And there is some things I don't agree with on the megasquirt, ideal gas law, baro correction setup and certain lack of information on various items in ms2extra in the documenation.
Of course my own tuning is not the best, but I like working and learning how to tune for the better with what I have. |
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chrisccm
Joined: 24 Jun 2010
Posts: 49
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Ur timing problems could be easy fixed by adjust noise filters and other settings pal |
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dkGoodrich dot com
Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 159
Location: Frankfort KY
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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I know what you mean, stock like start up and drive ability, if the customer didn't know any better, it came that way, but really there is a standalone in the glovebox.
I have gotten these results from megasquirt, but Haltech platinum sport is what comes to mind that fits the bill perfectly here. My girlfriend for example, has one in her daily wrx, runs perfect, hits the target airfuels to a tee and runs on a year around tune. That's right, we never have to touch the tune, year around. Temps around here go from 15 to 100 degrees F. This is something I rarely see tuning cars for a living, and Im thankful for that because retunes are a big part of my business 
Adaptronic, is also another one that yields stockish results.
There are also more expensive options that would do the trick as well, but I don't see them practical.
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KY's Fastest Honda's, Acura's & Subaru's
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Matt Cramer
Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 275
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| Techsalvager wrote: |
I can agree the megasquirt in ways can be better than the stock ecu, but in certain areas it seems not as good. I remember when I was checking timing to make sure it was aligned between engine and ecu. Despite the stock ecu being older compared to a MS, they had timing locked on very nicely but the MS using stock sensors seems to have more slop in the ignition timing. |
The stock Miata CAS, with a total of six slots and being mounted at the far end of the camshaft, is not the most accurate setup as it has a low resolution and is affected by timing belt accuracy and cam harmonics. It is possible the stock ECU had something in there designed to compensate, but it's likely such a code would be specific to that particular CAS design, and I'm not aware of any aftermarket ECUs designed around this one.
Swapping to a crank triggered setup can give you more accuracy - the timing's pretty solid with an MS2 and a 36-1 or 60-2 crank trigger. BTW, the Bosch Motorsports setup I mentioned above won't work with anything but a 60-2.
| Quote: | | Many other things, there is no fall back mode that I can see in Megasquirt incase say your map or maf sensor fails that you can drop down to a get home mode \ limp mode. |
A fairly uncommon feature in aftermarket ECUs - for that matter, I know that the '90-'93 stock Miata ECU can't do this, either.
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FPSeth
Joined: 03 May 2010
Posts: 25
Location: Right next to YUL
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:02 am Post subject: OEM quality, OEM price |
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It seems to me that a lot guys never appreciate just how much time and money is spent in the development of the OEM pcm's and they're tuning. On a street car, whenever I have the possibility to program an OEM ecu, I opt for that. Up Rev for nissan, EFI Live and HPTuner for GM and Diablosport for ford and chrysler. These give me the flexibilty to tune the parameters that have to be tuned but to leave the thousands of hours of development and tuning that the manufacture has already done. If there is ever any doubt about just how sophisticated these PCM's are, just open an E38 (late model gm v file in efi live or hp tuner and really look at the 100+ available tables, and that's just a single cam non-vvt V8! |
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Tomak
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 430
Location: •Calgary •Alberta
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: OEM quality, OEM price |
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| FPSeth wrote: | | It seems to me that a lot guys never appreciate just how much time and money is spent in the development of the OEM pcm's and they're tuning. On a street car, whenever I have the possibility to program an OEM ecu, I opt for that. Up Rev for nissan, EFI Live and HPTuner for GM and Diablosport for ford and chrysler. These give me the flexibilty to tune the parameters that have to be tuned but to leave the thousands of hours of development and tuning that the manufacture has already done. If there is ever any doubt about just how sophisticated these PCM's are, just open an E38 (late model gm v file in efi live or hp tuner and really look at the 100+ available tables, and that's just a single cam non-vvt V8! |
I agree for the most part, but man, some of the software, like UpRev is a Joke and does not give near enough flexibility. In cases like the Nissans' you are WAY better off going Haltech.
If it was a Ford or GM, I agree, I would keep stock ECU. Man, you can adjust ANYTHING and it's all layed out properly,. axis labeled, parameters defined... thousands of them. In that case, only reason to switch is if you don't understand them. It's a steep learning curve (especially the Ford).
Teh Chrysler ECUs are inherently limited, especially with the TCM modules, so on a serious build I would be tempted to go stand-alone.
The Haltech stuff is awesome, and give almost enough control to do anything you need at OEM type drivability. The only thing it was missing as of last summer was a "small pulse width adder" (or in Frod terms, the high and low slope and breakpoint) for low pulse width injector non linearity regions. You can "bake" it into your VE table, and not notice....but. Motec has this feature, but you are paying 3x more.
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AEM Factory Trained, Accel EMIC, Haltech Trained, Advanced GM EFI, Diablo CMR Mopar Dealer, SCT TUner - Viper/SRT10, Delta Force Dealer.
Analog DD 450
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Tomak
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 430
Location: •Calgary •Alberta
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Techsalvager wrote: | | Matt Cramer wrote: | Could you define what you mean by "near OEM abilities?" That can cover a lot of ground - if you wanted a system that behaves like a D-Jetronic, you may have something a bit too sophisticated. What exactly do you want to accomplish? Drivability? Sneaking a heavily modified car through a smog test? Building a new line of sports cars that have to comply with California smog laws?
The only aftermarket ECUs on the market that I'm aware of that are based on actual OEM designs are Bosch Motorsports and two Mototron based systems, ProEFI and Edelbrock's Pro Tuner (NOT Pro Flo). Well, technically, there's also the Delphi MEFI4 (which has been sold at various times by Painless and MSD), but it's an OEM *marine* setup and doesn't seem to be the easiest thing to tune. |
I can agree the megasquirt in ways can be better than the stock ecu, but in certain areas it seems not as good. I remember when I was checking timing to make sure it was aligned between engine and ecu. Despite the stock ecu being older compared to a MS, they had timing locked on very nicely but the MS using stock sensors seems to have more slop in the ignition timing.
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I found the older Megasquirts had these issues. Very sensitive to noise. I wrote them off at the time.
But this newer stuff is very promising, I had a Bonneville Salt land speed car built by local hobbyists in the shop running the MS3x, and it worked awesome, and I was amazed at what it could do (they exceeded their goal, and got withing 0.1mph of their class record). I gained enough confidence in the new board that I have a couple on order to try on my own cars before I start putting them in customer cars.
ROCK solid timing with a VR sensor, proper shielding and smart coils is what I saw.
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www.Dynomotive.ca
AEM Factory Trained, Accel EMIC, Haltech Trained, Advanced GM EFI, Diablo CMR Mopar Dealer, SCT TUner - Viper/SRT10, Delta Force Dealer.
Analog DD 450
Mustang MD250 - gone but not forgotten. |
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APEX Speed Technology
Joined: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 726
Location: Venice, CA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:08 pm Post subject: sophistication of strategies |
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This is what separates the professional level ECUs from the more basic ones. The fact is that for OEM-level drivability you need sophisticated strategies. When you look at all the entry and mid-level ECUs, they have to water-down their features because their audience is not necessarily engineering-based.
I've said many times you can't compare ECUs by their spec sheets, and this is why. For example, let's talk rev limits:
Several low-end ECUs offer a "soft" and a "hard" limit, without a whole lot of info on the differences. For example, EFI Tech gives you a fuel cutoff and ignition cutoff number.
By comparison, Pectel has a limit for oil temp, coolant temp and then 4 different limits that can change via map switch, gear position or another input. Each rev limit starts with a 3-D gear position versus RPM over initial limit torque reduction table. You define the amount of torque reduction in terms of fuel cut, ignition cut or e-throttle closing. Then there's another table where you define ignition retard over the limit. Both these tables have user-definable RPM ranges, both overall and per column. On top of all of this, there's a complete cut value and a re-instate value. And for all the cut functions you have user-definable cut patterns, along with criteria on how the cut pattern resets.
You can setup similar strategies with other pro-level ECUs. The problem though is that all these settings can really lose people. But with the proper tuner, the end result is a car that you can pull all the way to the limiter with no drama; in fact I've had situations where we added a shift light because drivers were unwittingly on the limiter.
I can give the same example with Bosch Motorsports cam control, Cosworth idle air control, MOTEC fuel mapping and more. I know I'm comparing apples to oranges - the units I'm talking about are around $4k and most mid-range ECUs I consider to be mid $2k. No, its not for everyone - but if you want OEM level performance make sure you have the right equipment and the right tuner.
-Neel
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Neel Vasavada
Apex Speed Technology
2947 S. Sepulveda Blvd
Los Angeles, CA 90064
310-314-2005
www.apexspeedtech.com |
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Tomak
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 430
Location: •Calgary •Alberta
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: sophistication of strategies |
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| APEX Speed Technology wrote: | This is what separates the professional level ECUs from the more basic ones. The fact is that for OEM-level drivability you need sophisticated strategies. When you look at all the entry and mid-level ECUs, they have to water-down their features because their audience is not necessarily engineering-based.
I've said many times you can't compare ECUs by their spec sheets, and this is why. For example, let's talk rev limits:
Several low-end ECUs offer a "soft" and a "hard" limit, without a whole lot of info on the differences. For example, EFI Tech gives you a fuel cutoff and ignition cutoff number.
By comparison, Pectel has a limit for oil temp, coolant temp and then 4 different limits that can change via map switch, gear position or another input. Each rev limit starts with a 3-D gear position versus RPM over initial limit torque reduction table. You define the amount of torque reduction in terms of fuel cut, ignition cut or e-throttle closing. Then there's another table where you define ignition retard over the limit. Both these tables have user-definable RPM ranges, both overall and per column. On top of all of this, there's a complete cut value and a re-instate value. And for all the cut functions you have user-definable cut patterns, along with criteria on how the cut pattern resets.
You can setup similar strategies with other pro-level ECUs. The problem though is that all these settings can really lose people. But with the proper tuner, the end result is a car that you can pull all the way to the limiter with no drama; in fact I've had situations where we added a shift light because drivers were unwittingly on the limiter.
I can give the same example with Bosch Motorsports cam control, Cosworth idle air control, MOTEC fuel mapping and more. I know I'm comparing apples to oranges - the units I'm talking about are around $4k and most mid-range ECUs I consider to be mid $2k. No, its not for everyone - but if you want OEM level performance make sure you have the right equipment and the right tuner.
-Neel |
Your example is over the top. For instance, no North American OEM is that crazy about its rev limiters.
You are getting into specific features that some Race ECUs can do. "Bells and whistles" that would not noticeably necessarily contribute to "drivability"
The reason I use 'North American' as an example to which to compare is simply that they are the most documented ECU's with by far the most comprehensive software available to the aftermarket.
The crux of the matter is that a 1990 GMC TBI truck had "great" drivability for most people, yet, even the most basic ECU today could match it.
"Eye of the beholder" is the territory we are getting into here now, and the 90/10 rule. You can get 90% of the results for 10% of the effort. But as you try and get that last 0.1%, your effort approaches infinity lol.
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AEM Factory Trained, Accel EMIC, Haltech Trained, Advanced GM EFI, Diablo CMR Mopar Dealer, SCT TUner - Viper/SRT10, Delta Force Dealer.
Analog DD 450
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bing
Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:38 pm Post subject: Re: sophistication of strategies |
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| Tomak wrote: | | APEX Speed Technology wrote: | This is what separates the professional level ECUs from the more basic ones. The fact is that for OEM-level drivability you need sophisticated strategies. When you look at all the entry and mid-level ECUs, they have to water-down their features because their audience is not necessarily engineering-based.
I've said many times you can't compare ECUs by their spec sheets, and this is why. For example, let's talk rev limits:
Several low-end ECUs offer a "soft" and a "hard" limit, without a whole lot of info on the differences. For example, EFI Tech gives you a fuel cutoff and ignition cutoff number.
By comparison, Pectel has a limit for oil temp, coolant temp and then 4 different limits that can change via map switch, gear position or another input. Each rev limit starts with a 3-D gear position versus RPM over initial limit torque reduction table. You define the amount of torque reduction in terms of fuel cut, ignition cut or e-throttle closing. Then there's another table where you define ignition retard over the limit. Both these tables have user-definable RPM ranges, both overall and per column. On top of all of this, there's a complete cut value and a re-instate value. And for all the cut functions you have user-definable cut patterns, along with criteria on how the cut pattern resets.
You can setup similar strategies with other pro-level ECUs. The problem though is that all these settings can really lose people. But with the proper tuner, the end result is a car that you can pull all the way to the limiter with no drama; in fact I've had situations where we added a shift light because drivers were unwittingly on the limiter.
I can give the same example with Bosch Motorsports cam control, Cosworth idle air control, MOTEC fuel mapping and more. I know I'm comparing apples to oranges - the units I'm talking about are around $4k and most mid-range ECUs I consider to be mid $2k. No, its not for everyone - but if you want OEM level performance make sure you have the right equipment and the right tuner.
-Neel |
Your example is over the top. For instance, no North American OEM is that crazy about its rev limiters.
You are getting into specific features that some Race ECUs can do. "Bells and whistles" that would not noticeably necessarily contribute to "drivability"
The reason I use 'North American' as an example to which to compare is simply that they are the most documented ECU's with by far the most comprehensive software available to the aftermarket.
The crux of the matter is that a 1990 GMC TBI truck had "great" drivability for most people, yet, even the most basic ECU today could match it.
"Eye of the beholder" is the territory we are getting into here now, and the 90/10 rule. You can get 90% of the results for 10% of the effort. But as you try and get that last 0.1%, your effort approaches infinity lol. |
Neel only gave one small simple example of what Pectel can do.
I have first hand experience with Pectel SQ6, Pectel offer lots of OEM like feature, no other aftermarket Standalone ECU out there have half of pectel offer for under at Mid range ECU pricing. It is more than a Race ECU.
At the end, it really depend how complex your engine/system is, if you looking for a solution for late model GM TBI even a 1986 haltech E6K can drive them like a champ, but i don't think it will drive a BMW S85 Engine.
Brian |
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MrDomino
Joined: 01 Oct 2009
Posts: 188
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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Are there manuals and/or demos available for the Pectel and Bosch Motorsports ECMs? While I most likely won't be able to afford either for a while, I'd like to mess around with their software and see how it works.
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APEX Speed Technology
Joined: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 726
Location: Venice, CA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:50 pm Post subject: Beholder |
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| Quote: | | "Eye of the beholder" is the territory we are getting into here now, and the 90/10 rule. You can get 90% of the results for 10% of the effort. But as you try and get that last 0.1%, your effort approaches infinity lol. |
I draw my conclusions based on the fact that we are factory-authorized dealers for more lines of ECUs than anyone I know, which means we work with all levels of products and features. Our simplest ECU is an AEM EMS-4, which retails at less than $1k, the most complex is the Pectel MQ12, which can be nearly $20k. Although not an MS reseller, our tuning business is pretty extensive, so we see quite a few every year. The support burden of the higher-end ECUs takes away the incentive sell them when a simpler, cheaper ECU will do the job, so I don't feel we're biased to prop up more expensive ECUs where unnecessary.
We have stories nearly every week where a car has a drivability problem that can either be fixed more effectively or more quickly with a more complex control strategy. We also have plenty of stories where cars with simpler ECUs come and go through our hands and run fine.
To discount the value of advanced functions without extensive experience with them to me seems unwise.
-Neel
_________________
Neel Vasavada
Apex Speed Technology
2947 S. Sepulveda Blvd
Los Angeles, CA 90064
310-314-2005
www.apexspeedtech.com |
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Tomak
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 430
Location: •Calgary •Alberta
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:09 am Post subject: Re: Beholder |
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| APEX Speed Technology wrote: |
To discount the value of advanced functions without extensive experience with them to me seems unwise.
-Neel |
No one is discounting anything. It all depends on what he meant by "OEM Feel".
I took it to mean drivability, and now that I read it more carefully, I am sure I am wrong. Sounds like he wants something that LOOKS like GM software.
If he was referring to drivability, that is subjective, and may not require a $5000+ ecu.
My idea of drivability is if I can comfortably give my 63 year old mother the keys and have her run errands and get groceries. Yours maybe different.
That is all I was trying to say.
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www.Dynomotive.ca
AEM Factory Trained, Accel EMIC, Haltech Trained, Advanced GM EFI, Diablo CMR Mopar Dealer, SCT TUner - Viper/SRT10, Delta Force Dealer.
Analog DD 450
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Buzzard
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:16 am Post subject: Re: sophistication of strategies |
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| APEX Speed Technology wrote: |
I've said many times you can't compare ECUs by their spec sheets |
I believe the statement by Neel is very astute, and here is why.
I am an Autronic dealer, my name is on the dealer list.
I recently started looking at a higher spec ecu to use in motorsport applications where the SM4 was maxed out, or I needed a feature set that the SM4 did not offer.
Comments on this forum by Sam@tdi led me to look at the Syvecs range of ecus for motorsport applications.I targeted the S6GP as having the increased feature set I required at a comparable price point.
I look at the Syvecs spec sheet and straight away i see
- 4 5V/bipolar, sensor/sync/speed, programmable trigger voltages
If you were to look at the SM4 spec sheet there is no mention of programmable trigger voltages and the reason is that the SM4 has an adaptive trigger input. For a reluctor sensor, provided the output voltage is within the "capture window" of the trigger input then I simply connect the trigger, crank the engine and the job is done.
I see this as neither a criticism of Syvecs nor a commendation of Autronic but rather an indication of Neels' statement as being the truth.
Chris |
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rvengineering
Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 57
Location: Holland
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:59 am Post subject: |
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I think there is no difference between most aftermarket ECU systems and an OEM ones if it comes to drivability as long as set-up is done correct. Bare in mind I’m not talking about ECU systems that compromise cost agents performance.
What sets most aftermarket ECU for me apart from OEM ones is redundancy or limp home modes.
How many aftermarket ECU will bring you home or even start if you got a defect on one of two timing sensors?
Same goes for motorsport. How many ECU’s will bring you to the finish if one or more load related sensors fail like MAP MAF or TPS?
And than we have cars with drive by wire and these are even more fun to build in redundancy.
I don’t think there will be the perfect aftremarked ECU but I sure like one that can be configured the way in want it so it seems perfect to me.
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RV Engineering.
Doktervermetstraat 14
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TEL: +31(0)6 13 90 61 94
E-mail adaptronic@gmail.com
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Warpspeed
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 483
Location: Melbourne
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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Do we really need a hundred different parameter maps to tune a rev limiter ?
Do we really need to be able to map gear change points against barometric pressure, or phases of the moon, or other really crazy stuff ?
A great many people just want a very fast street car that can be tuned to perfection for power, economy, and drivability.
To start, run, and get you home without drama and drive as smoothly as a factory car.
I have been a loyal Autronic fan for a great many years, it has a number of very clever built in features, and can be programmed to run just about any type of ignition system (or engine configuration) without having to buy extra cost add on options for running a combination a bit out of the ordinary.
For me at least, Autronic have stuck an excellent balance between cost and features being neither too primitive or too expensive.
Well worth a look.
Last edited by Warpspeed on Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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AndrisV
Joined: 04 Jul 2009
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| MrDomino wrote: | | Are there manuals and/or demos available for the Pectel and Bosch Motorsports ECMs? While I most likely won't be able to afford either for a while, I'd like to mess around with their software and see how it works. |
http://www.bosch-motorsport.de Software and all info are there. |
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Aurélien
Joined: 30 Jun 2009
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| AndrisV wrote: | | MrDomino wrote: | | Are there manuals and/or demos available for the Pectel and Bosch Motorsports ECMs? While I most likely won't be able to afford either for a while, I'd like to mess around with their software and see how it works. |
http://www.bosch-motorsport.de Software and all info are there. |
You can only donwload the basic software for MS4 ecu.
More interesting ecu like MS 5 software and function sheet are not availaible online. |
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