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Timing drift issue
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themechanic



Joined: 22 Jun 2012
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:00 am    Post subject: Timing drift issue Reply with quote

Locked timing at 25 deg and adjusted trigger angle until timing is synchronized, trigger angle 298. Started motor OK. After driving motor for about a day or so, it became hard to start and runs rough. Locked timing at 25 deg and checked on harmonic balancer. Found it firing at 350 deg Shocked
Adjusted trigger angle until 25 deg lined up with timing mark harmonic balancer. trigger angle now 308 deg. Started motor, OK
After driving motor for about 3 hrs, same problem again. Changed trigger angle again to sychronize timing, now trigger angle is 312 deg
Trigger is AEM EPM for SBC Hall Effect multi tooth 24 plus 1 home
Engine is Chevy V8
Haltech Elite 2500
I will appreciate any help on this.
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C. Ludwig



Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Posts: 354

PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The EPM isn't rotating is it?
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themechanic



Joined: 22 Jun 2012
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C. Ludwig wrote:
The EPM isn't rotating is it?


NO it is not
I put mark on it and checked. It is not rotating
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Matt Cramer



Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 396

PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about the outer ring on the balancer - is IT rotating? Also, make sure the key holding the balancer on the crank snout isn't broken.
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themechanic



Joined: 22 Jun 2012
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt Cramer wrote:
How about the outer ring on the balancer - is IT rotating? Also, make sure the key holding the balancer on the crank snout isn't broken.

Thanks, I checked it.
The outer ring is not rotating and balancer key is in place. Now brought back timing to 25 deg sync. I had to change trigger angle to 316 deg to get it to sync. Engine runs OK, for now but I am sure it will drift again.
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Matt Cramer



Joined: 25 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd suspect something mechanical doing the drifting. Any chance something is loose inside the EPM?
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themechanic



Joined: 22 Jun 2012
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt Cramer wrote:
I'd suspect something mechanical doing the drifting. Any chance something is loose inside the EPM?

I will take it out and check.
I have DTCs regarding sensor reference voltages but that should not cause timing to drift like this. I had the car running with these DTCs and they were no issues.
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10sec_rx7



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 459
Location: Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

100% mechanical issue, the TDC ref number will only change if the trigger is moving
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Pantera EFI



Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 1718
Location: So. California

PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:36 am    Post subject: Timing Drift Reply with quote

I too find this interesting, agree that this problem would be hard to create inside the EMS.
The same can be stated by mechanical changes as a timing chain "stretch" of 60/30 crankshaft degrees would also be impossible.
The same can also be stated by the tooth count on the Camshaft Drive Gear as this change is greater than that tooth count.

Thus a question, when the TDC Reference is correct, based on engine running performance.
When SI TDC is correct does the engine make good power?

Lance
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rvengineering



Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 129
Location: Holland

PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it will be more constructive to put a 2 channel oscilloscope on it that can sample for a couple if seconds and make a run so you can set out coil on time in relation the to the timing sensor. There are loads rumours, and things happening on timing errors on ECU systems.
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themechanic



Joined: 22 Jun 2012
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update:

Replaced AEM EPM with a new one. Sync timing and started engine. Problem is not fixed Sad
DTCs on sensor ref. voltage disappeared after I cut the connection between battery ground and pins 14, 15, and 16. This is according to Haltech, (Sensor ground wires should not have continuity to chassis/battery when the ECU plugs are disconnected).
However, the Elite 2500 wiring diagram shows the sensor ref. voltage joined to ground, as I understand it. Confused
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themechanic



Joined: 22 Jun 2012
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update 2:
Teared engine apart and found pistons and rings damaged. Broken rings (knock and or detonation). Damaged pistons are 1,8,7,2,5 piston 1 is most damaged piston 5 least.
Firing order is 18436572
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joe90



Joined: 19 Mar 2013
Posts: 382
Location: under the car

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The very most important thing is to have knock detection that actually works.

I don't think I've ever locked my timing at 25 deg?
It's just not right?
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MJR



Joined: 13 Jun 2016
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Late to the show... But in my experience, timing drift issues with the Haltech systems is usually too much trigger angle.

The maximum trigger angle allowable is 720 divided by the number of cylinders. For instance, with an 8 cylinder the maximum allowable trigger angle would be 90, and for a six cylinder it would be 120.

You have to adjust your tooth offset until you can get the trigger angle in that window.

Quick check is to lock the timing, and accelerate the engine. If the trigger angle is outside the allowable window, you'll see the timing advance, even though the angle is locked.

If not in this window, it really struggles to know exactly where it is, and can change around on you.
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themechanic



Joined: 22 Jun 2012
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MJR wrote:
Late to the show... But in my experience, timing drift issues with the Haltech systems is usually too much trigger angle.

The maximum trigger angle allowable is 720 divided by the number of cylinders. For instance, with an 8 cylinder the maximum allowable trigger angle would be 90, and for a six cylinder it would be 120.

You have to adjust your tooth offset until you can get the trigger angle in that window.

Quick check is to lock the timing, and accelerate the engine. If the trigger angle is outside the allowable window, you'll see the timing advance, even though the angle is locked.

If not in this window, it really struggles to know exactly where it is, and can change around on you.

When I locked the timing and rev the engine, there is no drift.
with the Elite series ECUs, it does not require tooth offset, just adjust trigger angel to get it synced.
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10sec_rx7



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 459
Location: Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so looking at the EPM it has a dual hall effect pickup inside? with a 8 tooth wheel and a single tooth wheel.

do you have a pic of the inside of it?

its a simple system and have used similar ones a heap of times on the elite with no issues,
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10sec_rx7



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 459
Location: Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

also email me you tune file and ill have a look

dale@castlehillperformance.com.au
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themechanic



Joined: 22 Jun 2012
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

10sec_rx7 wrote:
so looking at the EPM it has a dual hall effect pickup inside? with a 8 tooth wheel and a single tooth wheel.

do you have a pic of the inside of it?

its a simple system and have used similar ones a heap of times on the elite with no issues,


Yes it is a hall effect with 24 teeth for trigger and a single tooth for home to sync.
I don't have picture of the inside of it.
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10sec_rx7



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 459
Location: Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

24 teeth and hall effect could be a issue, most hall sensors are not fast enough to work correctly, all the 24/1 setups I have done use magnetic sensors,

I would remove 16 teeth and turn it in to a 8/1 setup
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Pantera EFI



Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 1718
Location: So. California

PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:39 pm    Post subject: GM-LS-7/3/92 etc. Alegro Sensor Element ( Hall ) Reply with quote

The GM LS-x "Gray" is a Hall Sensor used with my 60-2 (58x)
I have tested this to over 9000 RPM, NO Drift, NO miscount.
My ECU-882C is used for the test.

The Alegro Element Data Sheet could allow for a frequency report if read.

There could be pole piece "overlap" between teeth, though you would have miss-counts, not only drift.

Lance
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