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MrDomino
Joined: 01 Oct 2009
Posts: 188
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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 Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:09 am Post subject: |
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I think he was talking about the Simulink part of Matlab which is superior in every way to LabVIEW.
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Warpspeed
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 484
Location: Melbourne
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| Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| stevieturbo wrote: | So having used neither Autronic or VEMS..
You still have to populate a VE table as well as the other tables anyway ? |
No, Ve table does not need to be entered manually.
The software knows that mechanical engine displacement increases directly with rpm, and Ve is learned by the software from measured airflow versus engine displacement.
As we all know, things such as valve timing, and induction/exhaust tuning and exhaust back pressure can all have a very dramatic effect on Ve.
I have no idea how Autronic do this, but there is some kind of mathematical model built up, maybe something like in an engine simulation program, where a whole bunch of parameters are used to build a virtual engine.
The result is that fuel mapping can be very precise with very few tuning cells, because it does far more than just interpolate directly between adjacent tuning cells as low end systems all do.
The fuel system is also completely self tuning.
You connect up an Autronic air fuel meter to the engine management system, and fill the target air fuel ratios into a map.
On a chassis dyno, you just run the engine through the entire speed and load ranges and the fuel system very quickly self tunes.
Once that is done, you can then just change the target air fuel ratio without having to go back and do another dyno run.
For example,
Suppose you set the target air fuel ratio at 3,000 rpm small throttle to 14:1 and the auto tuning sets the mixture to exactly that on the chassis dyno.
Out on the road, you might want to try 15:1 air fuel at the same operating point. All you need to do is change the one particular target air fuel tuning cell to 15:1 or 16:1 or whatever.....
This is great, because if you have say a lean stumble just above idle at one particular throttle setting, you can just change the air fuel target right at that exact point, and know exactly what the new air fuel ratio is going to be.
It is a very powerful and very easy to use system. |
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rvengineering
Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 57
Location: Holland
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| Warpspeed wrote: | | stevieturbo wrote: | So having used neither Autronic or VEMS..
You still have to populate a VE table as well as the other tables anyway ? |
No, Ve table does not need to be entered manually.
The software knows that mechanical engine displacement increases directly with rpm, and Ve is learned by the software from measured airflow versus engine displacement.
As we all know, things such as valve timing, and induction/exhaust tuning and exhaust back pressure can all have a very dramatic effect on Ve.
I have no idea how Autronic do this, but there is some kind of mathematical model built up, maybe something like in an engine simulation program, where a whole bunch of parameters are used to build a virtual engine.
The result is that fuel mapping can be very precise with very few tuning cells, because it does far more than just interpolate directly between adjacent tuning cells as low end systems all do.
The fuel system is also completely self tuning.
You connect up an Autronic air fuel meter to the engine management system, and fill the target air fuel ratios into a map.
On a chassis dyno, you just run the engine through the entire speed and load ranges and the fuel system very quickly self tunes.
Once that is done, you can then just change the target air fuel ratio without having to go back and do another dyno run.
For example,
Suppose you set the target air fuel ratio at 3,000 rpm small throttle to 14:1 and the auto tuning sets the mixture to exactly that on the chassis dyno.
Out on the road, you might want to try 15:1 air fuel at the same operating point. All you need to do is change the one particular target air fuel tuning cell to 15:1 or 16:1 or whatever.....
This is great, because if you have say a lean stumble just above idle at one particular throttle setting, you can just change the air fuel target right at that exact point, and know exactly what the new air fuel ratio is going to be.
It is a very powerful and very easy to use system. |
Warpspeed can you explain what an air fuel ratio is? To me it’s nothing more than 1Kg of fuel needs and X amount of Kg air so knowing this it’s very easy to change the AFR inside the control strategy. We like many others can do the same thing with the AFR.
I don’t know Autronic but to me it dos not sound like a very complicated things they have.
Some of my customers used Autronic before and they find it hard to get good drivability out of it so they moved to an other brand of ECU.
By the way I love these movies where they try to prove things having a bad camera resolution so you hardly can see any thing and showing only the MAX HP value after a run.
I would like to see the whole power curve of the two runs so you get the complete picture of it.
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Doktervermetstraat 14
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TEL: +31(0)6 13 90 61 94
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Warpspeed
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 484
Location: Melbourne
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:50 am Post subject: |
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| rvengineering wrote: |
Warpspeed can you explain what an air fuel ratio is? To me it’s nothing more than 1Kg of fuel needs and X amount of Kg air so knowing this it’s very easy to change the AFR inside the control strategy. |
Air fuel ratio (AFR) is the ratio of combustion air to added fuel by weight.
O/k, the main fuel map contains some numbers which may correspond to injector open times in milliseconds, or sometimes just a dimensionless number like 0 to 256 or whatever the particular system you are tuning uses.
Those numbers do not correspond directly to anything such as Lambda or air fuel ratio, and injector times are not all thet helpfull either.
Duty cycle is probably more useful there too.
But many systems just have numbers in each cell for fuel, higher numbers meaning richer.
So we have say 134 in one tuning cell and 134 in another tuning cell, but what does that actually mean ???
The problem is, that because Ve varies all over the place from one cell to the next, both mass airflow and fuel flow are also all over the place.
The same number in two different tuning cells will not give the same AFR if the Ve changes a lot between those two cells.
With Autronic you can look up the AFR target values you originally set in every cell, and set that to some new AFR after dyno tuning has been completed and you road testing.
The software calculates what the new injector opening time needs to be for the change, you don't have to do it manually yourself.
The same number in two different tuning cells will not give the same AFR if the Ve changes between those two cells. But if you WANT the AFR to be the same, the software will plug in the required calculated injector times to achieve that.
Direct AFR is a much nicer thing to work with in the fuel map than injector open times or dimensionless numbers, because you always know where you are with respect to stoichiometric, and volumetric efficiency changes are automatically taken care of, |
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GintsK
Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:20 am Post subject: |
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BTW what happens with Autronic? Their webpage shows "New Site Coming Soon - Please Contact Us" for years. Do they develop somewhat new?
In the past their tuning software didn't allow user to enter injector parameters. If you had some injector not mentioned in their menu (most of injectors aren't mentioned there), you had to send it to them (Australia?). And you get back values what tells nothing. Do they improved this?
Gints |
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rvengineering
Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 57
Location: Holland
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:49 am Post subject: |
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OK I get it for a bit. I hope you understand there is no good or bad in this. If your happy the way Autronic dos his thing so be it.
On some applications I do the same or almost the same as Autronic as you can see on my previous post with the pictures. Why is this? Well in this case we must be able to calculate fuel mass that we feed into an injector flowmap so the ECU can work out the injector duration in relation to the fuel pressure.
As you can see in the pictures lowering the fuel pressure will increase injector duration a bit and reduces injector fuel flow a bit as well. An injection event is about 800 microseconds.
With the whole VE set-up it can give you any numbers depending on how correct you did enter engine displacement and injector flow and sow on.
Hi revving petrol engines I rather tune witch injector duration due to the fact that you have an idea on opening time for the injector that can be less than 5ms on engine running over 15.000RPM where most of them run stage injection as well.
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RV Engineering.
Doktervermetstraat 14
4681 CD Nieuw-Vossemeer.
TEL: +31(0)6 13 90 61 94
E-mail adaptronic@gmail.com
www.adaptronic.nl |
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Buzzard
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 161
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| GintsK wrote: | BTW what happens with Autronic? Their webpage shows "New Site Coming Soon - Please Contact Us" for years. Do they develop somewhat new?
In the past their tuning software didn't allow user to enter injector parameters. If you had some injector not mentioned in their menu (most of injectors aren't mentioned there), you had to send it to them (Australia?). And you get back values what tells nothing. Do they improved this?
Gints |
I believe Autronic has priorities other than their webpage. The injector situation is the same although you can have a calibration made if you have accurate dead times.
The calibration values you receive from Autronic may mean very little to you but they define many injector operating parameters for the ecu. I personanally like the system as it saves me time when the injector is selectable directly from the list In the latest software there is anapproximate option for when the dead times are known although this would be an undesriable situation in my opinion.
Again i declare my bias, I am an Autronic dealer, my name is on the dealer list.
I like the Autronic system, I like the fixed display for maps and data, all ecu software looks the same and is easy to use on a long day when 3-4 engines need to be tuned.
Others prefer other systems for their reasons and we get a very good look at the capabilities of high end systems through Neel, Sam@tdi and others.
Chris
Last edited by Buzzard on Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:26 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Buzzard
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 161
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| MrDomino wrote: | | Wouldn't the algorithms be covered in the manuals and help information? |
If you have a great interest in ecu algorithms you might want to pursue a Kalmaker manual.
Kalmaker is a real time tuning system for earlier GM ecu's in particular Holden ecu's. Every algorithm is discussed in the manual.
kalmaker.com.au
Also there may be some help on the delco hacking forum
http://delcohacking.net/forums/
Chris |
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Tomak
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 431
Location: •Calgary •Alberta
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| rvengineering wrote: |
I don’t know Autronic but to me it dos not sound like a very complicated things they have.
Some of my customers used Autronic before and they find it hard to get good drivability out of it so they moved to an other brand of ECU.
. |
Nothing wrong with the Autronic, it's the tuner.
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Tomak
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 431
Location: •Calgary •Alberta
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| stevieturbo wrote: | | Buzzard wrote: |
Have a look for Ben Straders Autronic single fuel cell video. Showed the same power for a single cell as for a complete map but so what.What was not shown but can easily be seen is that the engine achieved a full dyno ramp run within acceptable AFR limits with a single fuel cell.
Anyone want to try that on another ecu and report back.?
Chris |
Ive never used Autronic, so not familiar with what you are saying.
But why on earth would anyone even consider using a single fuel load cell to run any engine ?
And doesnt the Autronic have relatively low map resolution ? What makes it so special ? |
Why? To prove what PROPER input and output calibration, and properly set-up modifiers can accomplish.
And the Autronic has all the resolution you want, or need, you can add,subtract, or adjust any point, but why have 256 points, if you don't need them?
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Warpspeed
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 484
Location: Melbourne
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Tomak wrote: |
Ive never used Autronic, so not familiar with what you are saying.
But why on earth would anyone even consider using a single fuel load cell to run any engine ?
And doesnt the Autronic have relatively low map resolution ? What makes it so special ? |
| Quote: |
Why? To prove what PROPER input and output calibration, and properly set-up modifiers can accomplish.
And the Autronic has all the resolution you want, or need, you can add,subtract, or adjust any point, but why have 256 points, if you don't need them? |
Yup,
If Autronic provided four thousand tuning cells that all needed to be individually tuned for fuel and ignition timing, people would complain about the cost of dyno time and the vast amount of work required to tune it.
If Autronic provided only twenty five tuning cells, people would complain it has no tuning resolution and is a poor system.
So you get to decide YOURSELF exactly how many rpm points you want, and WHERE you want them, and how many load tuning points you want, and where you want to place those too.
They don't need to be evenly spaced.
It comes with a very flexible and very user friendly system for customizing the map density.
And the interpolation algorithm is a real beauty, no need at all for a vast number of tuning cells.
Tho one tuning cell demo is really a gimmick, to show just how powerful the system is.
Nobody would ever run an engine like that on the road.
But it does show the power of the software to model engine requirements between the tuning set points, even if there is only one set point entered !!! |
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Tomak
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 431
Location: •Calgary •Alberta
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Warpspeed wrote: |
Tho one tuning cell demo is really a gimmick, to show just how powerful the system is.
Nobody would ever run an engine like that on the road.
But it does show the power of the software to model engine requirements between the tuning set points, even if there is only one set point entered !!! |
The new AEM Infinity is boasting that once the engine info is entered, one only needs to add 2d (ie WOT) VE Curve, and it will model the rest. But even at that, one could still just put the same value in the whole table, and use closed loop and learning to tweek the rest.
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Warpspeed
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 484
Location: Melbourne
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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Technology, particularly in software development has now become a very powerful tool that goes way beyond just manually setting a few tuning cells on a dyno with a Lap Top.
A great deal of effort is going into spark plug sensing of combustion chamber pressures through ion flow sensing, to make safe detonation free auto tuning of the ignition map a future possibility.
Not here yet, but it will come eventually.
Fully automatic self tuning of air fuel ratio has been around for a very long time.
There are a great many differences between a top shelf system and a very basic low cost stand alone engine management system. |
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Buzzard
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 161
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| rvengineering wrote: |
On some applications I do the same or almost the same as Autronic as you can see on my previous post with the pictures. |
Can you show a video of your ecu ruining an engine thru a full dyno ramp run on a single fuel cell please?
Chris |
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APEX Speed Technology
Joined: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 726
Location: Venice, CA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:02 pm Post subject: gimmicks |
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| Quote: |
There are a great many differences between a top shelf system and a very basic low cost stand alone engine management system. |
I've been reading all these posts about Autronic, VE, Autotune and the rest, and trying to not get into a nonproductive discussion on this.
However, having tuned these and other systems with "autotune" capabilities based on VE calculations extensively, I simply think its a sales gimmick. Every good system has features that take advantage of closed-loop fuel learning, tuning and corrections to essentially make your airflow model VE based.
I've tuned dozens of these ECUs and can tell you an equal number of times where the models and math they use cause just as many frustrations as they do help making tuning easy. The more complex ECUs allow you to decide when and where to apply fueling based on multi-variable "VE" calculations and when to not use those strategies because they fall outside of the range or a manufacturer's model.
-Neel
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Tomak
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 431
Location: •Calgary •Alberta
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: gimmicks |
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[quote="APEX Speed Technology"] | Quote: |
I've tuned dozens of these ECUs and can tell you an equal number of times where the models and math they use cause just as many frustrations as they do help making tuning easy. The more complex ECUs allow you to decide when and where to apply fueling based on multi-variable "VE" calculations and when to not use those strategies because they fall outside of the range or a manufacturer's model.
-Neel |
Wait.... what?
That makes no sense.
"and when to not use those strategies because they fall outside of the range or a manufacturer's model."
LOL, if it's an engine, it has a VE curve. Pretty simple. And there is no mystical "formula" to calculate fuel requirements that only higher level ecu's can do.
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AEM Factory Trained, Accel EMIC, Haltech Trained, Advanced GM EFI, Diablo CMR Mopar Dealer, SCT TUner - Viper/SRT10, Delta Force Dealer.
Analog DD 450
Mustang MD250 - gone but not forgotten. |
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MrDomino
Joined: 01 Oct 2009
Posts: 188
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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Using different models for different parts of the map or different control strategies is done quite frequently. Just because VE-model based fueling works well at WOT doesn't mean it'll work correctly at part throttle, etc.
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10sec_rx7
Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 379
Location: Sydney Australia
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:28 am Post subject: |
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| MrDomino wrote: | | Just because VE-model based fueling works well at WOT doesn't mean it'll work correctly at part throttle, etc. |
care to explain that? |
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10sec_rx7
Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 379
Location: Sydney Australia
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:28 am Post subject: |
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| MrDomino wrote: | | Just because VE-model based fueling works well at WOT doesn't mean it'll work correctly at part throttle, etc. |
care to explain that? |
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MrDomino
Joined: 01 Oct 2009
Posts: 188
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:21 am Post subject: |
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Not really. I was just using it as an example of what I was talking about. In certain areas of the map you may need to change control strategies to enhance driveability or performance. I know of several people who use alpha-n/speed-density blending on their cars with ITBs to get it to idle properly and not stutter during tip in while running fine at part throttle and WOT.
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