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MrDomino
Joined: 01 Oct 2009
Posts: 188
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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 Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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Oh man. The Bosch MS 5.2 ECU is only 21,000 EUR. What a bargain.
If anyone has the Bosch MS 5 software and manuals and would be willing to send them to me then let me know via PM. I'm not going to do anything crazy with them. I'll probably load up the software, mess around with it for a week or so, and then uninstall it since I won't be able to do much without an actual ECU wired up to a car but I'd like to at least gain some understanding of how the software works and what the capabilities are.
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Warpspeed
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 483
Location: Melbourne
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| MrDomino wrote: | Oh man. The Bosch MS 5.2 ECU is only 21,000 EUR. What a bargain.
If anyone has the Bosch MS 5 software and manuals and would be willing to send them to me then let me know via PM. I'm not going to do anything crazy with them. I'll probably load up the software, mess around with it for a week or so, and then uninstall it since I won't be able to do much without an actual ECU wired up to a car but I'd like to at least gain some understanding of how the software works and what the capabilities are. |
You probably will not be able to tell much just from prodding the user interface.
A bit like using Microsoft Windows.
You can become an expert at navigating through ten layers of pull down menus, but that really tells you nothing about how the underlaying algorithms work, or how to access all the hidden non documented features. |
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MrDomino
Joined: 01 Oct 2009
Posts: 188
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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Wouldn't the algorithms be covered in the manuals and help information?
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APEX Speed Technology
Joined: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 726
Location: Venice, CA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:15 pm Post subject: Limp Homes |
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| Quote: | How many aftermarket ECU will bring you home or even start if you got a defect on one of two timing sensors?
Same goes for motorsport. How many ECU’s will bring you to the finish if one or more load related sensors fail like MAP MAF or TPS?
And than we have cars with drive by wire and these are even more fun to build in redundancy. |
The higher end ones do offer this. The Pectel for example, has limp homes for boost, water temp and oil temp. MOTEC, Pectel, Bosch and many others can detect sensor failures and enter a default value while triggering an error codes.
In fact, with Bosch MS and Pectel, you could fail every single sensor on the car except the crank sensor, and still limp it back. And for Pectel, you can install a redundant crank sensor so if one does fail, it switches to the second one.
-Neel
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Neel Vasavada
Apex Speed Technology
2947 S. Sepulveda Blvd
Los Angeles, CA 90064
310-314-2005
www.apexspeedtech.com |
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Warpspeed
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 483
Location: Melbourne
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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Mr Domino.
I suppose it depends on the level of documentation.
But usually a users manual is pretty basic.
The guys that wrote the program for obvious reasons, don't want you to be able to start changing things around internally in the program that will cause the software to crash. |
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Aurélien
Joined: 30 Jun 2009
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| MrDomino wrote: | | Wouldn't the algorithms be covered in the manuals and help information? |
Not everything, but believe me there is a lot in bosch manual.
Just get a look at bosch MS4 function sheet.  |
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Techsalvager
Joined: 21 Jun 2011
Posts: 140
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:36 pm Post subject: Re: Beholder |
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| Tomak wrote: |
no one is discounting anything. It all depends on what he meant by "OEM Feel".
I took it to mean drivability, and now that I read it more carefully, I am sure I am wrong. Sounds like he wants something that LOOKS like GM software.
If he was referring to drivability, that is subjective, and may not require a $5000+ ecu.
My idea of drivability is if I can comfortably give my 63 year old mother the keys and have her run errands and get groceries. Yours maybe different.
That is all I was trying to say. |
I was referring to driveability amongst other things like having backup control strageties and a way to let the driver know of issues, output to check engine light or connectivity though a obd2 port that I could have scanned at a parts store and get some info. I don't plan to always have my laptop with me to fix stuff.
My friend and me both have had TPS's start screwing up on our megasquirt installs, unforuntely there is no way the ecu can figure out a failure of said item and disable tps based functions.
I understand I have a bottom barrel ecu, so I have been looking into other oem ecus that I maybe able to use with my stock sensors without much issues on connecting it to the stock setup. Yes I do like tinker and engineering solutions. Of course there is give and take, the oem ecu's may not be able to flashed real time.
Learned my lesson on stuff and as always still learning. |
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Buzzard
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Warpspeed wrote: | Do we really need a hundred different parameter maps to tune a rev limiter ?
Do we really need to be able to map gear change points against barometric pressure, or phases of the moon, or other really crazy stuff ?
For me at least, Autronic have stuck an excellent balance between cost and features being neither too primitive or too expensive.
Well worth a look. |
Certainly not everyday, but I can see why Neel might find it handy. Using the GPC's in the Autronic SM4 you can build some very good control functions including controlling the revlimiter 2 against baro and any other available variable.
The true power in Autronic is in the fuel control. I am yet to see another speed-density ecu that comes close(I have not looked at all ecu's)
Have a look for Ben Straders Autronic single fuel cell video. Showed the same power for a single cell as for a complete map but so what.What was not shown but can easily be seen is that the engine achieved a full dyno ramp run within acceptable AFR limits with a single fuel cell.
Anyone want to try that on another ecu and report back.?
Chris
Last edited by Buzzard on Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:49 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Buzzard
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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stevieturbo
Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 846
Location: Northern Ireland
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:57 am Post subject: |
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| Buzzard wrote: |
Have a look for Ben Straders Autronic single fuel cell video. Showed the same power for a single cell as for a complete map but so what.What was not shown but can easily be seen is that the engine achieved a full dyno ramp run within acceptable AFR limits with a single fuel cell.
Anyone want to try that on another ecu and report back.?
Chris |
Ive never used Autronic, so not familiar with what you are saying.
But why on earth would anyone even consider using a single fuel load cell to run any engine ?
And doesnt the Autronic have relatively low map resolution ? What makes it so special ?
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LS1, V7 YSi 
9.85 @ 144.75mph
202mph standing mile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgWRCDtiTQ0 |
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Aurélien
Joined: 30 Jun 2009
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| stevieturbo wrote: |
But why on earth would anyone even consider using a single fuel load cell to run any engine ?
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Calibrating one single value is less time consuming than XXX values !
But by the way, you will not calibrate one cell with autronic, it was just in order to show how well the ecu airflow model is. |
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rvengineering
Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 57
Location: Holland
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:54 am Post subject: Re: Limp Homes |
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| APEX Speed Technology wrote: | | Quote: | How many aftermarket ECU will bring you home or even start if you got a defect on one of two timing sensors?
Same goes for motorsport. How many ECU’s will bring you to the finish if one or more load related sensors fail like MAP MAF or TPS?
And than we have cars with drive by wire and these are even more fun to build in redundancy. |
The higher end ones do offer this. The Pectel for example, has limp homes for boost, water temp and oil temp. MOTEC, Pectel, Bosch and many others can detect sensor failures and enter a default value while triggering an error codes.
In fact, with Bosch MS and Pectel, you could fail every single sensor on the car except the crank sensor, and still limp it back. And for Pectel, you can install a redundant crank sensor so if one does fail, it switches to the second one.
-Neel |
Well Neel not only Bosch MS and Pectel have this limp hope mode I programmed the 1280Ecu we have in the same modes so you only need the crank or cam sensor and optional an AUX power switch for a set RPM if the cars has drive by wire to get you home faster.
For DI use we even have a 720 degree reset modes for 4 stroke engine with no cam sensor.
I must say it’s fun to program these fail save things, but it’s a lot of work to create a virtual sensor reading for most sensors but in the end you can run some engine close to max power with even running the boost control in open loop with no MAP and MAF feedback as long as you got the MAT sensor working.
I looked at many other ECU configuration software and I ask my self how complicated can you make things sometimes? Is it a lack of know how? Or is it just interesting to have all these options or do we really need them? To me it made sense to break it down to use full parts going back to basic on what you really need and start working from there and yes soon it will get more complicated ones you get into transient behavior and discover that you can get there a lot easier by making calculations as to trail and error.
In general it’s nothing more than an air fuel ratio, fuel density/fuel flow injectors, volumetric efficiency, a mollier diagram for air mass correction and a well set-up calculation for engine acceleration/deceleration so the next fuel injected amount and ignition point is spot on.
OK than we got loads of goodies to play with, like boost controllers and VVT cams that will give an offset to VE and transient so you will need some correction table for that as well.
Is there a thing like OEM feeling? For sure there must be a non OEM ECU feeling if the dam thing breaks down.
_________________
RV Engineering.
Doktervermetstraat 14
4681 CD Nieuw-Vossemeer.
TEL: +31(0)6 13 90 61 94
E-mail adaptronic@gmail.com
www.adaptronic.nl |
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Buzzard
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| stevieturbo wrote: | | Buzzard wrote: |
Have a look for Ben Straders Autronic single fuel cell video. Showed the same power for a single cell as for a complete map but so what.What was not shown but can easily be seen is that the engine achieved a full dyno ramp run within acceptable AFR limits with a single fuel cell.
Anyone want to try that on another ecu and report back.?
Chris |
Ive never used Autronic, so not familiar with what you are saying.
But why on earth would anyone even consider using a single fuel load cell to run any engine ?
And doesnt the Autronic have relatively low map resolution ? What makes it so special ? |
Low sensor resolution or low axis resolution. Autronic has 16*32 load/rpm axis points
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZQvB0KD5NA
It shows the power in the airflow model You certainly wouldn't want to do this for every engine, or send an engine out the door as tuned in this manner. But you can surely see that you might require less sites to achieve a tuned engine. Try this some time on your favorite speed-density ecu. |
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Warpspeed
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 483
Location: Melbourne
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| stevieturbo wrote: |
Ive never used Autronic, so not familiar with what you are saying.
But why on earth would anyone even consider using a single fuel load cell to run any engine ?
And doesnt the Autronic have relatively low map resolution ? What makes it so special ? |
It is the special software algorithms that make Autronic pretty unique in the basic way it works.
Autronic does not rely on a simple fuel map to set fuel flow the way most other other systems work. What it does is to model the entire engine system for Ve with the parameters fed into it, either deliberately, or what the system learns from airflow. It then uses that software Ve model to control a fuel supply curve to suit. The map fine tunes the fuel curve, but it uses the Ve model to interpolate between cells where there are few cells.
It is the only possible way it could work with only one big wide fuel tuning cell.
Think about that for a while.......
As for low map resolution, that is entirely up to you how many cells you want to have, and where you want them.
You can have as high or as low resolution in any part of the map you desire. The map does not have to have an even spresd of cell sizes either.
Maybe you want to map every 50 rpm and have to tune many hundreds of different cells.
If that is what you want Autronic will do that.
Or you may want few cells overall, but high cell density in one very critical part of the map, Autronic can do that too.
Now if someone were to just download the Autronic user interface software and play around with it, there is no way a person could figure out how Autronic have done all of this.
Richard Aubert originally worked at Motec to develop their first original systems, which are still considered to be among the very best.
He left Motec and created his own company (Autronic) and developed an even better system with a totally different marketing strategy.
When you buy Autronic you get absolutely everything, no extra add on bits to buy, or software keys you pay extra for to to unlock features.
A totally different marketing strategy to the pirates at Motec.
Most Americans have never heard of Autronic, it is an Australian Company that has been around for a long time with many dealerships around the country.
Down here it is very highly regarded.
Very few systems ever appear for sale secondhand, they are that good.
I have no connection with Autronic, except that I am a very happy and satisfied long term Autronic customer. |
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Warpspeed
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 483
Location: Melbourne
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| stevieturbo wrote: |
Ive never used Autronic, so not familiar with what you are saying.
But why on earth would anyone even consider using a single fuel load cell to run any engine ?
And doesnt the Autronic have relatively low map resolution ? What makes it so special ? |
It is the special software algorithms that make Autronic pretty unique in the basic way it works.
Autronic does not rely on a simple fuel map to set fuel flow the way most other other systems work. What it does is to model the entire engine system for Ve with the parameters fed into it, either deliberately, or what the system itself learns from airflow. It then uses that software Ve model to control a fuel supply curve to suit. The map sets the initial fuel curve, but it uses the Ve software model to interpolate between cells where there are few cells.
It is the only possible way it could work with only one big wide fuel tuning cell.
Think about that for a while.......
As for low map resolution, that is entirely up to you how many cells you want to have, and where you want to have them.
Cells can be added, moved, or deleted anywhere on the map.
You can have as high or as low resolution in any part of the map you desire. The map does not have to have an even spread of cell sizes either.
Maybe you want to map every 50 rpm and have to tune many hundreds of different cells.
If that is what you want Autronic will do that.
Or you may want (or need) very few cells overall, but high cell density in one very critical part of the map, Autronic can do that too.
Now if someone were to just download the Autronic user interface software and play around with it, there is no way a person could figure out how Autronic have done all of this, or how it actually works.
Richard Aubert originally worked at Motec to develop their first original systems, which are still considered to be among the very best.
He left Motec and created his own company (Autronic) and developed an even better system with a totally different marketing strategy.
When you buy Autronic you get absolutely everything, no extra cost add on bits to buy, or software keys you pay extra for to to unlock features.
A totally different marketing strategy to the pirates at Motec.
Most Americans have never heard of Autronic, it is an Australian Company that has been around for a very long time with many dealerships around the country.
Down here it is very highly regarded.
Very few systems ever appear for sale secondhand, they are that good.
I have no connection with Autronic, except that I am a very happy and satisfied long term Autronic customer. |
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fire
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:28 am Post subject: |
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| Buzzard wrote: | | stevieturbo wrote: | | Buzzard wrote: |
Have a look for Ben Straders Autronic single fuel cell video. Showed the same power for a single cell as for a complete map but so what.What was not shown but can easily be seen is that the engine achieved a full dyno ramp run within acceptable AFR limits with a single fuel cell.
Anyone want to try that on another ecu and report back.?
Chris |
Ive never used Autronic, so not familiar with what you are saying.
But why on earth would anyone even consider using a single fuel load cell to run any engine ?
And doesnt the Autronic have relatively low map resolution ? What makes it so special ? |
Low sensor resolution or low axis resolution. Autronic has 16*32 load/rpm axis points
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZQvB0KD5NA
It shows the power in the airflow model You certainly wouldn't want to do this for every engine, or send an engine out the door as tuned in this manner. But you can surely see that you might require less sites to achieve a tuned engine. Try this some time on your favorite speed-density ecu. |
But, there is one trick  .
For fuel autronic use VE table, MAP, lambda target table and corrections(warmup...). So pw=req_fuel*VE*MAP(in absolute in bars)*correction/(lambda target).
So basically you can adjust fuel with VE table or lambda target table.
BTW if you use that in good way, that is great thing. Because VE table is define with mechanical characteristic of engine. So when you tune your VE table good and if you want add more fuel you just change lambda target table.
Vems also has similar method, so all engine can work with 1*1 VE table. |
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stevieturbo
Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 846
Location: Northern Ireland
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| Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:44 am Post subject: |
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So having used neither Autronic or VEMS..
You still have to populate a VE table as well as the other tables anyway ?
_________________
LS1, V7 YSi
9.85 @ 144.75mph
202mph standing mile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgWRCDtiTQ0 |
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rvengineering
Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 57
Location: Holland
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| Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:37 am Post subject: |
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I don’t see what so special about it in the way Autronic or VEMS did it as I use this as well as a base to calculate fuel and when I get some more funny stuff in I can even calculate engine torque based on the type of fuel used or run duel fuel by fading fuel density between diesel en CNG for example.
Have a look @ these pictures, maybe it’s a bit easier to understand how thing can be done?
_________________
RV Engineering.
Doktervermetstraat 14
4681 CD Nieuw-Vossemeer.
TEL: +31(0)6 13 90 61 94
E-mail adaptronic@gmail.com
www.adaptronic.nl |
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sam@tdi
Joined: 11 Sep 2006
Posts: 648
Location: London, England
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baldur
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Posts: 430
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| Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| sam@tdi wrote: | | Cool software, similar to Matlab |
More like Labview. |
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