EFI University

[HaltechMike]

New from Haltech is the exclusive methanol only wideband, aptly titled the Haltech Methanol Wideband. Key features of the new wideband include:

-Methanol AFR Range of 3.25 to 7.75
-Built in Digital Display
-Utilizes an NTK Sensor
-The only methanol specific wideband available
-Ease of installation
-0-5v output for integration with any aftermarket ECU with 0-5v wideband input

[Gadgeroonie]

will it display lambda ?

[HaltechMike]

These will currently only display in AFR.

[Slides]

How about RRP in AUD and USD and lambda output on scren as option?

wouldn't mind a 0-5V sensor with the better qual NTK sensor provided it is the usual NTK sensor that can deal with normal hydrocarbon fuel exhaust temps.
_________________
mazda Rx, you'd think they were full of truffles

[RICE RACING]

That is some pretty silly marketing "The Only Methanol specific meter" You missed the boat mate

Autronic do Methanol (at press of a button, along with Petrol, LPG, and Lambda!) and did so for last decade + that I can remember
^ With NTK and Bosch LSM-11 in the B-Model meter

So maybe need to take that into account
_________________
www.riceracing.com.au
FD3S development specialist
Water injection
Advanced performance analysis

[underpsi68]

That looks like the AFX setup. Probably just configured to show meth compared to gasoline.

[HaltechMike]

Our dealers wanted a meter that was capable of <4.0:1 methanol mixtures. The turbo ProMod and Rotary methanol markets tune well below 4.0:1 Meth AFR. The NTK sensor is more “Meth” friendly and reads to 3.25:1 Meth AFR easily. The Bosch family of sensors can’t do this.

[Buzzard]

[RICE RACING]

This is an interesting topic but I would say it borders on irrelevance honestly.

The Meth scale AFR is of no use to anyone unless you are doing back calculations in engineering terms to work an air flow out or fuel flow.

The irony here is most of these markets and "tuners" in general can only *respond quickly* to numbers that have meaning to them.

Suffice to say the two prevalent ones are Petrol AFR scale and Lambda. I see this all the time that people of much experience REACT far quicker to the actual meaning of the petrol AFR scale rather than the odd other fuel scales.

^ They ALL mean the same thing at the end of the day and all you are doing is changing the numerical number to a scale that has meaning to you.

As petrol is the dominant fuel type used and described you will see most people talk in this language, and this even extends back to Bosch in F1 electronics pioneering days with BMW and TAG, their electronic programing modules displayed Petrol AFR scale <later trimmed to suit chemical fuels with stoich ration around 13.84:1 (I could try to take a screen shot if people are in doubt)

But I digress!

AFR and Petrol is pretty much the universal language, and using this scale on Methanol is no problem at all, infact when I was selling AFR meters most ALL of the end users (shops or otherwise) knew this scale fitted them perfectly in terms of understanding what the numbers actually meant and also were directly comparable to a majority of their peers, be that on track or researching many other sources to scope out information.

Lambda is the next most popular scale and is fuel type neutral 20% weak is 20% weak on any internal combustible fuel type. Most people though are not exposed to enough information of this type as its not the "standard" measure adopted around the world across a wide range of education and training standards........ thus you find that even tuners who are very opinionated on the use of lambda themselves do not react as fast to seeing a number on that scale! (I personally have seen this many times in reality and laughed pretty hard!).

In regards to Bosch sensors not reading that low?

I strongly suggest haltech contract out their electronics to more experienced companies I personally have tested Bosch LSM-11 and various LSU variants and with the right electronics driving them they can and do return the same low end values. Infact one of the manufacturers using a LSU can and does read far lower than any other meter on the market (0.58 Lambda) !

Most manufacturers though understand that the rich end corrections needed to make even NTK sensors give the correct reading are complex and as such limit the values they will return to 10.0:1 AFR or around 0.68 Lambda range. Honestly most methanol runners *read very experienced ones* will work with EGT as an indicator as its is far more reliable when working on this grossly rich range as MOST AFR sensors do not return correct readings (they most all will give false lean readings!@) when subjected to these 50%++ excess fuel ratio's over stoichiometric values.
_________________
www.riceracing.com.au
FD3S development specialist
Water injection
Advanced performance analysis

[RICE RACING]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-fuel_ratio

^ This is a great read (rare for Wiki lol!) for people unfamiliar with the different concepts/expressions used in engineering.

What I am trying to relay in a simple way is the PETROL AFR scale is suitable for ANY fuel type, it makes no difference whatsoever, and in many cases people can and do react far quicker to this scale than any other in my experience.

9.80:1 for example represents 50% excess fuel requirement over stoich any which way you cut it on any fuel type and thus there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to change to the exact fuel type/specification and rejig your internal brain wiring and response times to learn what scales have what implications for the various fuel brews you may have or be running

The vast majority of people do not use the figure in raw terms except for anything but a relationship establishment exercise, its like trying to tell some one 1/4 mile terminal speeds in kmh when the majority talk in mph or power in watts V's hp .... the key here is what scale has more meaning to people and how fast they can react to it or how much feeling they have for it.

Equivalence Ratio is one that makes the most technical sense and some F1 reports I have talk quite a bit in this language but again people just get confused trying to make themselves look smart lol. running 50% more fuel or 1.5 Equivalence ratio makes more sense than 0.66 Lambda IMHO but for some people 9.80:1 AFR in Petrol has much more meaning again (all saying the same thing)

Horses for Courses
_________________
www.riceracing.com.au
FD3S development specialist
Water injection
Advanced performance analysis

[RICE RACING]

And if you are "claiming" you can read down to 7.5:1 in Petrol AFR terms with your "methanol AFR unit" then I call BS on that claim

3.25 (advertised)/6.4 (stoich for methanol) = 0.51 Lambda

or 1.96 roughly equivalence ratio or lets say 95% excess fuel over stoich.

I do not know of ANY sensor in the world that claims to even be on wildest opportunistic advertising accurate at those levels of excess fuel ratio.

can you please tell us what they/you are measured against to validate this specification? and also what the % (accuracy) to actual hard measures of fuel and air flow this holds true too?
_________________
www.riceracing.com.au
FD3S development specialist
Water injection
Advanced performance analysis

[SteveNichols]

Great posts. I can't wait to evaluate your products. There are several companies advertising accurate reading in this range. NTK, ECM, ETAS. Here are specs from the ECM-CO.com website on their AFM1000-B:

"Specifications:
Range: 8.0 to 18.0 AFR (std. version)
6.0 to 20.0 AFR (b version)
Accuracy: +/-1.5%
Response Time: Less than 150ms
Calculation Time: ms
Fuel Type Supported: Gasoline, others available
Analog Output: 0 to 5 V, linearized with AFR
Power: 11 to 28 VDC
Module Size: 4" x 3.5" x 1" (W x H x D)
Harness: 3', 10', 20'
Related Downloads:
AFM Brochure (2426KB)
The complete kit includes the following parts:
Item Description P/N Qty Photo
1a. AFM1000 Control Module (Standard Version), or 1000A-1 1
1b. AFM1000 Control Module (b Version) 1000A-1b 1
2. UEGO Sensor 1000A-2 1
3a. Wiring Harness, 20 ft., or 1000A-3a 1
3b. Wiring Harness, 10 ft., or 1000A-3b 1
3c. Wiring Harness, 3 ft. 1000A-3c 1
4. Adjustment Screwdriver 2400E-35 1
5. 18mm x 1.5mm Mild Steel Boss and Stainless Steel Plug 1000A-5 1
6a. Instruction Manual, or 1000A-6 1
6b. Instruction Manual (b Version) 1000A-6b 1
www.ecm-co.comLos Altos, CA 94023-0040, USA(408) 734-3433 © 2007 ECM. All Rights Reserved.Specifications subject to change without notice."

Oddly enough this company also manufactures the NTK "Blue" boxes. They also supply the calibrations for the LZA03 NTK sensors used by some aftermarket ECU companies making wideband units.

The B version claims 6:1 +-1.5%.

Oddly enough many of the F1 teams using the NTK sensors get them from ECM-CO.

Driving the LSM11 with the "right" electronics is a great idea. Where can I buy them? The "Right" electronics for the LSU family would be great as well. Where can I get those?

[Turboivo]

[RICE RACING]

Thanks for posting the ECM link

Sorry for going off on a tangent. I think most of the general meters have a 10.00 cut off from probably two big reasons, the saturation of knock retardation (richer than 9.5:1 induces more knock) and the physical limit of the ability to fire a spark plug and have a net gain in BMEP/Power.
_________________
www.riceracing.com.au
FD3S development specialist
Water injection
Advanced performance analysis

[furpo]

Just because a scale is what is commonly understood does not mean that it is the correct scale to use.

Roger
_________________
don't mind me, i always need help

[RICE RACING]

[jasaircraft]

So in conclusion, cuz you've got me confused with all the discussion...
a Bosch LSU 4.2 sensor will be able to relatively accurately measure AFR when running methanol only?
Yes o No?

[crispeed]

[jasaircraft]

I'll be waiting for that info, could you check and compare the readings of your Haltech meth WB and your Innovate LM1/LC1 if you have one please?(most probably have one).
cheers,
joe

[crispeed]